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Old 11-28-2012, 08:32 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Are we still talking about a 4-5 year old case involving less than a minute of compulsion training for a Police K9 , by his K9 handler...who was not only investigated by his own department but also outside agencies involved in separate investigations?

(Yes, the officer was fired, investigated and re-instated. We can sit here all day and debate K9 training methods.
While some of us may not agree with compulsion training, it was that particular department's methods of training at the time...that has since been revised.)

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5970/jones.PDF

OR, are we just criticizing and arguing over each others' opinions?

Everyone here brings to the table their own life experience and thoughts. So, sure, they'll be different.

I personally don't care for blanket statements like " the good ol' boys club", that a certain breed is bad, or that people should be lumped into a certain group because of another's actions.
But, if that's your opinion...so be it.

It doesn't really MATTER whether I think its fair or not. Does it?

It doesn't matter how young or old you are, you're entitled to an opinion. Popular or not.

Arguing brings nothing to the table.

IMO, this thread has gotten way off topic...and,

I'm still waiting to see what the lesson/informative value this thread has/had for the GSD dog forum.

Last edited by KatsMuse; 11-28-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:01 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatsMuse View Post
Are we still talking about a 4-5 year old case involving less than a minute of compulsion training for a Police K9 , by his K9 handler...who was not only investigated by his own department but also outside agencies involved in separate investigations?

(Yes, the officer was fired, investigated and re-instated. We can sit here all day and debate K9 training methods.
While some of us may not agree with compulsion training, it was that particular department's methods of training at the time...that has since been revised.)

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...5970/jones.PDF

OR, are we just criticizing and arguing over each others' opinions?

Everyone here brings to the table their own life experience and thoughts. So, sure, they'll be different.

I personally don't care for blanket statements like " the good ol' boys club", that a certain breed is bad, or that people should be lumped into a certain group because of another's actions.
But, if that's your opinion...so be it.

It doesn't really MATTER whether I think its fair or not. Does it?

It doesn't matter how young or old you are, you're entitled to an opinion. Popular or not.

Arguing brings nothing to the table.

IMO, this thread has gotten way off topic...and,

I'm still waiting to see what the lesson/informative value this thread has/had for the GSD dog forum.
THAT was not compulsion training. That was abuse. Plain and simple. The dog has NO idea why he is being hung and kicked.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:04 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Dogs are animals.
So are humans.

Quote:
They do not have souls.
Not to be offensive, but it's not provable that humans do either. Using a religious construct to devalue other life forms is weak.

Quote:
They do not go to heaven.
Again, not provable that humans do either. I have to say,imo, if there is a "heaven" it is much more likely to be populated with dogs than humans.

Quote:
They are not individuals.
I've owned 16 dogs in my lifetime. I can assure you, they are indeed individuals. Breed traits do not eliminate individuality. 7 shelties- all distinct personalities. 3 labs- all distinct personalities.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:08 AM   #24 (permalink)
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THAT was not compulsion training. That was abuse. Plain and simple. The dog has NO idea why he is being hung and kicked.
I'm guessing you read the attached PDF file?
If so, you'll see where it had nothing to do with what the DOG thought....it had to do with the K9
Training methods they used (and some agencies still do) some 5-10 YEARS ago.

Last edited by KatsMuse; 11-28-2012 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:44 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammaD View Post
So are humans.



Not to be offensive, but it's not provable that humans do either. Using a religious construct to devalue other life forms is weak.



Again, not provable that humans do either. I have to say,imo, if there is a "heaven" it is much more likely to be populated with dogs than humans.



I've owned 16 dogs in my lifetime. I can assure you, they are indeed individuals. Breed traits do not eliminate individuality. 7 shelties- all distinct personalities. 3 labs- all distinct personalities.



I'll be honest, you're wasting your breath with that one, unless she is agree'd with, everyone is "confused" and doesn't know what they are talking about.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:01 AM   #26 (permalink)
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In my 'Good Ole' Boy's' club, all dogs do go to Heaven.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:15 AM   #27 (permalink)
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To me, it looks as if that is what they were taught to do.
We may not like it, and we may not do this ourselves, and it may seem despicable to us, but that is what that department had its K9 handlers do.



Trooper James R. Pickard, III testified as follows:

Q. Now in your training as a canine
handler with the North Carolina Highway
Patrol, would you just tell us some of the
things that you have personally been trained
to do and what you’ve seen with respect to
dog handling with, for instance, concerning
compliance techniques? What are some of the
things you’ve been taught to do?

A. It all depends on what the dog is
doing. If the dog, of course, is acting in
an undesirable manner, you would use the
choke collar primarily for compliance. But
let’s say there is something more extreme,
like [Jones] was having to deal with with
his dog, as far as handler aggression, which
would usually happen whenever he tried to
retrieve the toy from the dog.

Numerous
times, he’d get bitten by the dog, and it -9-
usually would end up being a fight between
him and the dog. Nine times out of ten,
[Jones] came out on the short end of the
stick, to be very honest with you.

Whenever displayed handler aggression
by the dog [sic], you use any means
necessary to discipline that dog, whatever
you can get a hold of, whatever you can do,
whatever it takes to reinforce this canine,
you don’t do this. You cannot do this. The
handler has to be in control. If he’s not
in control, let’s be honest. The dog turns
into a four-wheel-drive stabbing machine
because he can do whatever he wants and he
has no control over him.

You have to have total control of the
dog at all times. If that means kicking
him, hitting him, choking him, whatever it
takes to make sure he understands, “This is
not acceptable. You cannot do this.” It
becomes an extreme liability on the side of
the road if you can’t control that dog.



Mike Evitt, a member of the Patrol, testified as follows:
Q. All right. And in an effort to kind of
speed up the process here today, are you
familiar with various compliance or training
techniques employed by the Highway Patrol
for canine handling?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with the
choke-out technique on a dog?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen that done?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell us about that?
A. When you’re trying to get a dog to
comply, there are steps that we try first,
you know, verbal, but when they don’t’
respond to that and you have to choke them
out, there are several ways to choke them
out. You can put them in an airplane spin,
it’s called. You can hold them up by the
choke collar and choke them out. You can
tie them off and choke them out.
Q. And are these techniques that you have
learned in your training as a canine handler
in the North Carolina Highway Patrol?
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:16 AM   #28 (permalink)
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A. Yes, sir.
. . . .
Q. Okay. Now is this——what you observed
in the tape the handler doing, who turns out
to be former Sergeant Jones, techniques that
you were trained by——to do by Captain
Castelloe on the Highway Patrol?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how about in the second tape; can
you tell us what, if anything, you observed
in that tape?
A. Nothing unusual. I mean——
Q. Based upon your utilization of a canine
and your training with——three, three and a
half years with the North Carolina Highway
Patrol, have you seen situations that were
similar or may be perceived by people who
are not familiar with the canine training
program that may even appear to be worse
than what you saw in those videotapes?
A. Yes, sir.
. . . .
Q. Okay. And what other types of training
techniques have you seen in your experience
as a North Carolina Highway Patrol canine
handler in addition to what you’ve already
told us about?
A. Like I said, the airplane spins, You
know, where you let go of them and they
roll. Kicked——I’ve seen them be kicked in
training.
Q. When would you see someone kick a
canine in training, under what
circumstances?
A. One time that I remember, was trying to
get a dog to out on a bite——on a bite suit——
and had worked with the same dog day in and
day out and were having to escalate the
measures to try to get it to comply, to get
it to out on a bite.
Q. And when the dog does not out or
release on the bite, then what do you do
when he’s not following your commands?
A. Then you have to escalate to something
else by choking him off.
Q. All right. Would you also then at some
point in time escalate by kicking the dog?
A. Yes, if that’s the only way you can get
it to out on the bite.
Q. Now these training techniques that you
learned from Mr. Castelloe and the North
Carolina Highway Patrol, were any of these
designed to abuse or injure or hurt the dog?
A. No, sir.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:39 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:

Patrol training of canines consistently stressed Obedience & Control. Canine
handlers were taught to rule with an “iron fist” as canines were “weapons” which had to be under control at all times. Having been
taught
“when youor [sic] dog is not performing, bust his ass,” handlers were taught to find what worked with each individual dog and handlers used whatever methods worked with their dogs.
I'm way too soft for this, I won't watch the video. Can someone tell me if patrol training methods have changed?

I don't live in this type of world, I can't form an opinion much less a judgment.

Other than that, I just want to say I love GrammaD's post
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:10 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Enough bashing already!
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