British talk show host questions Cesar Millan

[x11]

wow what a great source of various viewpoints on training approaches. can i indulge a question; when there were thousands more working dogs on the planet and thousands of more...?? work (lol), how did these handler/dog teams get anything done before electricity was even invented??? riddle me that.

houndsmen, mushers, hunters, herders....had precise control over their dogs mostly large packs running together in open country for a longer period of time than e-collars have been invented.

all the techno-gadgetry works for sure but it is a life-style choice more than a training choice if that makes sense. my dogs will never know what a prong,e...etc is. **** the only time they wear a flat collar and leash is where it is required by law - or training bite-work.

[Olivers mama]

x11 -

I doubt you'll get an answer. I've been trying for 1 1/2 years to get an answer off 2 GSD forums. What do you do if the dog BITES you!? I can't get a single response...

Oh, we'll bash CM. And we'll say how how the new-fangled training methods are oh, so wonderful. But absolutely NO ONE will tell you how to deal with a dog that wants to bite your hand off.

Give the dog treats? Sned the dog on an all-expense paid trip to Doggie Wonderland? It's all well & good to bash CM. Been in those shoes? Who Knows - because NO ONE has told ME how they would handle a dog that bites them.

I've already left 1 forum because of the idealogic BS, followed by lots of lectures. With not a shread of advice. Just crap. And you people wonder why there are the same old names here? Few new ones?

Because when you ask the hard questions - the pros run for cover. In 2 years, only 1 person has offered to help us. Only 1. Out of how many people on 2 forums?

Mebbe the next time our rescue doggie bites me, draws blood & causes swelling - I should use a clicker on her or fill her mouth full of treats. I mean really - as long as it's not your bloodied hand - what do you care? Go ahead & bash CM for what he did. Again, it wasn't your bloodied hand...

[bocron]

Ok, I can't get the video to play (will try again in a few, slow internet tonight for some reason), but how weird that it's Alan T. I was totally thinking about him this morning (or rather the other show he used to host about gardening makeovers) and wondering what ever happened to him. I'm guessing it's the same guy, how many Alan Titchmarshes could there be?

[selzer]

Oliver's mama, I think that no one wants to address that issue because if you take their advice, and are seriously injured, then they will feel responsible to a point. Most of the people on these sites are not professional dog-behaviorists or professional dog-trainers. If the dog is causing injuries to you, then you need a behaviorist and or trainer that can evaluate the dog and your management style and body language, and work with you to develop a plan for your dog.

It is like playing with fire to diagnose a dog sght un-seen.

We can direct you to the Leerburg site where I believe there is a grade-scale for dog bites, and where your dog fits on the scale.

We can tell you that there are a lot of homeless dogs out there, and a dog that bites the hand that feeds it needs to take a one-way trip to the vet -- I doubt that would go over well with some members, and others would totally agree. But WE DON'T MATTER. It is your dog, your responsibility, and you have to make that call.

So what you want is for advice over the internet on how to manage a dog that bites you.

Personally, I do not think we should tell others to euthanize their dog, because we are not there to determine the severity of the bite, nor the circumstances behind the bite. Over an internet forum, all we really should do is encourage you to do a complete physical check up on the dog, and seek a good behaviorist and trainer to work with you and the dog. Beyond that, we would be working on our perception of your perception of what is going on.

It is an unfair question for ordinary pet-owners.

It is like trying to get advice from a parenting forum when your kid is suicidal. You need a professional.

[bocron]

Originally Posted by Olivers mama

Because when you ask the hard questions - the pros run for cover.

Durn straight a pro won't answer you on a forum. If they did then I'd question their ethics and/or experience to be honest. Like my husband is forever telling fellow trainers that we work with, if the most experienced guy in the world calls us and asks an opinion, we tell him the same thing we tell the lady in the next town with her first dog, we have to see the dog in order to make an assessment, anything other than a first hand evaluation is unprofessional and irresponsible to say the least.

Most of the "pros" or experienced trainers on this or any forum are happy to give advice on training a new behavior, assisting with crate training and general manners, but when it comes to an issue that could cause serious injury to an owner/handler or damage to the dog itself, then no, I wouldn't expect to see any pro that is really concerned with the outcome hand out advice on here. Many will state what experience they've had with a similar sounding case, or what they would guess could be behind the behavior, but that is generally the extent of what they can ethically hand out.
If nothing else, by being a professional their hands are tied in that if they gave advice that was used (correctly or incorrectly) and the results were an injury than in many states they can be considered liable.

[x11]

Originally Posted by Olivers mama

x11 -

I doubt you'll get an answer. I've been trying for 1 1/2 years to get an answer off 2 GSD forums. What do you do if the dog BITES you!? I can't get a single response...

Oh, we'll bash CM. And we'll say how how the new-fangled training methods are oh, so wonderful. But absolutely NO ONE will tell you how to deal with a dog that wants to bite your hand off.

Give the dog treats? Sned the dog on an all-expense paid trip to Doggie Wonderland? It's all well & good to bash CM. Been in those shoes? Who Knows - because NO ONE has told ME how they would handle a dog that bites them.

I've already left 1 forum because of the idealogic BS, followed by lots of lectures. With not a shread of advice. Just crap. And you people wonder why there are the same old names here? Few new ones?

Because when you ask the hard questions - the pros run for cover. In 2 years, only 1 person has offered to help us. Only 1. Out of how many people on 2 forums?

Mebbe the next time our rescue doggie bites me, draws blood & causes swelling - I should use a clicker on her or fill her mouth full of treats. I mean really - as long as it's not your bloodied hand - what do you care? Go ahead & bash CM for what he did. Again, it wasn't your bloodied hand...

hi it is unfortunate if you are in this position. i think youmight be being a bit harsh on forum people for not answering tho, given the consequences of what could go wrong. i am no expert but if i was i would not give direct advice to a specific question like that.

not trying to be insensitive or downplay what you must be going thru. i will say if you can afford it please go pay a proffesional for advice. it is different to getting free advice on a public forum. i wish you luck and hope things work out. at some point you have to ask what is best for you. yours and the dog in question.

good luck and hope you don't get too angry at people that would prolly love to help and feel yr pain but are too scared to get involved.

[GregK]

Originally Posted by selzer

and a dog that bites the hand that feeds it needs to take a one-way trip to the vet --

Disagree in a big way!! To many variables to make a blanket statement like this.

Referring to what Cesar did in this video: nice way to induce a dog to bite you. Epic fail on his part!

[Cassidy's Mom]

I would not own a dog that bites me - I'm talking about a real bite with intent to harm, and I assume that's what the question refers to. I've been bitten accidentally, (not seriously) I've been nipped numerous times, but none of my dogs have ever intentionally bit me or anyone else. I can handle reactivity to other dogs, but I'm not comfortable with aggression towards humans, especially to the humans in the dog's household. If the aggression was only towards outsiders, and circumstances could always be managed to keep everyone safe, maybe, but not towards the dog's own family.

If if got the dog from a rescue, I would return it to the rescue. If I got the dog from a breeder I would return it to the breeder. That is just not something I'm willing to work through.

And I totally agree with GregK about the video of Cesar. He did everything wrong, provoking a fearful, insecure dog into biting him - he darned well should have seen that coming, because I'm hardly an expert, and *I* did! If the dog in the video were mine she would not behave that way around food because I wouldn't have made the NUMEROUS mistakes that the owners did, apparently for years, that caused her issues. I've known about NILIF for over 10 years, and have implemented it immediately with my current 2 and previous 2 dogs, when we got each of them as puppies. I run a pretty tight ship, at least until I'm sure it's no longer necessary, and then I loosen up, I don't wait to impose control until after I'm starting to see problems. My philosophy about raising dogs is that a problem prevented is a problem that I will never have to fix later, and one of the things I'm the most proactive about is teaching my dogs to trust me around their food, their toys, anything they value, so there is never any need to guard them from me.

Does everything always go perfectly? Of course not, I'm always learning and I probably always will be, no matter how many more dogs I have in my lifetime, because each of them teaches me something new. And then I take what I've learned and use it with the next dog going forward.

[Olivers mama]

OK - we can all see that CM provoked the dog. Course, he WAS there to see the dog in action, so he HAD to provoke, IMO. I guess what I have the hardest time dealing with, is all the bashing of what he did. Yet, when you ask what someone else would do in the same position, you get nothing.

I asked for advice 1 - 1/2 years ago. I got lectured, but that's it. We'd had this dog about 6-7 months when the first bite occurred. BTW - she only bit me, not any male. She prefers men. Judging from her physical scars & her overall actions, we guess that she'd been abused by a female. The Rescue never returned our calls, so there was no "send her back" option. And to be honest, we'd already fallen for this big lunkhead. We just knew she'd be PTS if we gave her back. And we were just stubborn enough to want to give her a chance.

Point is, when asked how anyone here would handle a biting dog, everyone skirts the issue. Bad-mouth CM & the constant woulda-coulda-shoulda. But no suggestions as to how to handle it. And liability for 'advice' on a computer forum? Are you kidding me? Who's gonna sue a screen name? That's just a cop-out.

We hired 2 trainers - who knew nothing about NILIF & treat-trained only. Following their advice, we wound up with a dog that only responded to treats. We had a "behaviorist" here. Expensive. When she started talking about Ziva's "relationship" with her mama dog, my lower jaw hit the floor. Before I gave this floozy her check (I kept my end of the bargain) - I asked the dog to get on the couch. Lie her head down on a pillow. Then I asked the dog to tell her life history. The "behaviorist" asked what I was doing. I told her I was showing her the same BS she'd been showing us. And then asked her to leave. See, it's all well & good to tell someone to hire this trainer or that behaviorist, but there's no real screening process. No degrees are needed. Luck of the draw. Obviously, we had no luck, even tho we spent over 3K for these so-called 'professionals'.

Fast-forward to now. We've had her 2 years. This dog has turned into the most beautiful, loving dog anyone could ask for. When I come home from a chemo treatment, I usually lie on the floor in front of the TV. I have a 16-yr-old cat (Oliver) that will lie down about 6" from my face. And an 88-lb lunkhead who lies right beside me, sharing my pillow. My hands are now all over her face & mouth - it is I who brushes her teeth. She's come full circle. Still needs work - I understand the lifelong commitment. But she's safe & she knows that. She's home.

Point is - we could've shaved months off this curve, had someone been willing to give us advice as to how THEY would handle a fear-biter. I mean, you give advice on everything else. But we made it anyway & are better for having done so.

Point is - & I'll keep asking until someone can explain to me otherwise. If you're willing to bash another trainer while, at the same time, refuse to say how YOU would handle the situation...well then, I guess the silence speaks volumes. If the only reason you respond to a CM thread is to bash him, until & unless you're willing to offer an alternative, the bashing means nothing to me.

Actually, I'm GLAD no one would help us (except 1 young man - a perfect stranger - contacted me via PM & showed up at our house a few days later to assess & assist) HE taught us about NILIF. Because we would've wound up getting rid of this dog. And she would've been PTS - no one wants to adopt a biting dog. And she deserved better than that. So does / did Holly. The fact that CM took her in speaks volumes about the man. Funny, I don't like him, either. But at least I can give credit where credit is due.

[codmaster]

Good point!