British talk show host questions Cesar Millan

[Olivers mama]

Blitz - we can't use dimes here as screwdrivers - have to save as many as we can for gasoline...

But your point is well-taken. All of the aforementioned are tools. Owner's choice which to use & what not to. In the "old days", a simple lead & collar - either leather or choke - were the main tools used. With quite a bit of success, I might add. Nowadays, we have doggie shrinks telling us to raise dogs like we do kids - the soft touch -vs- discipline. I'm not going to argue the old 'trachea injury owing to a choke collar' thing. (If & when those injuries happen, it's the handler's fault, not the collar.) 100% treat-based training may work well for a puppy. It does NOT work effectively with all Rescues.

We have a Rescue - she's 99% obed-trained - as long as there's treats. If not, she flips a digit at us.

I wasn't going to watch the video cause I knew it would tick me off. Which it did - talk show hosts have a limited amount of time & always (IMO) wind up being rude. To say to a guest, "we've never had so many complaints about an impending guest" - heck, even *I* wanted to smack him. And I'm more than tired of the pro- & anti-CM argument. Neither side holds a whole lot of water. Neither side can get beyond a simple disagreement. This host was an arse. IMO. And the punching of a biting dog? Bad, bad Cesar!

Only 1 person on this forum has been specific on how she'd handle a GSD that bit her. Everyone else skates over it. Pro-treat or anti-treat - no one has told me how to handle a biting dog. And I'll tell you what - I'll be darned if I'll offer treats to a 88-lb biting animal. I "get" Cesar puching the biting dog. I've seen a lot worse.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1

lol..it should be free. Treat training works well when it comes to teaching the dog what you acually want of it. The better relationship you have with the dog the more he wants to please you. However, he will test you and test frequently depending on the temperment especially a working dog. Love is not respect. Respect is gained by how you respond to those frequent tests.
Yes I can probably use a rope and improvise a choke, then use it to train the dog. But why not use a prong when the efficiency and training time is that much less, not to mention the amount of times I have to issue corrections to the dog. The prong, Choke, E collar whatever you want they are all tools. But as with all tools some are more efficient then others.
I can use a dime to turn a flat head screw, it will get the job done no problem. Should I then only use dimes and never a screw driver simply because the dime can do the job too??

Not the best analogy. A dime is not the right tool for the job. Now you could say, you have to drive a screw into the handle of your pot, should you get out the electric screwdriver to do this, or a regular flat screw driver. For some dogs putting a prong collar or an e-collar on them would be like using rider mower with a 42 inch deck for a postage stamp lawn. It can be over-kill.

Personally, it is amazing to me that people who like prong collars talk about all the testing and corrections their dogs need. I don't use them, and my dogs really don't test me a lot. I rarely have to use a correction at all. When I do a voice correction or a look is enough. I am willing to take a little longer in training. But then I have a bunch of dogs, and training time is some of the only one on one bonding time I have with each dog, and so if it takes longer to get the dog where I want them to be, that's fine. I don't mind taking my time on the journey.

[Blitzkrieg1]

Originally Posted by selzer

Not the best analogy. A dime is not the right tool for the job. Now you could say, you have to drive a screw into the handle of your pot, should you get out the electric screwdriver to do this, or a regular flat screw driver. For some dogs putting a prong collar or an e-collar on them would be like using rider mower with a 42 inch deck for a postage stamp lawn. It can be over-kill.

Personally, it is amazing to me that people who like prong collars talk about all the testing and corrections their dogs need. I don't use them, and my dogs really don't test me a lot. I rarely have to use a correction at all. When I do a voice correction or a look is enough. I am willing to take a little longer in training. But then I have a bunch of dogs, and training time is some of the only one on one bonding time I have with each dog, and so if it takes longer to get the dog where I want them to be, that's fine. I don't mind taking my time on the journey.

No offence but thats very indicative of their temperment. I like a harder dog that pushes the limits, it usually equates to a better worker.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1

No offence but thats very indicative of their temperment. I like a harder dog that pushes the limits, it usually equates to a better worker.

No offense taken, but dogs will test people who give in, and who ask for something and don't follow through too, ask multiple times, etc. Some of it is just biddibility, and some dogs are really great at wanting to work with their people.

[sparra]

Originally Posted by Kaity

This was an awful video. I believe e collars are illegal in England as well.

The big bad electric shock thru the collar just feels like if you shocked your hand on a door handle or something in the winter. Not that bad, gets the reaction we want. Poking the dog in the ribs, kicking his underbelly and snapping him out of the behaviour when he's focusing in on something for example, a leash aggressive dog. I'd like to see the host of this show walk a l/a dog past dog kennels, see how he does without a prong collar. How do you otherwise CORRECT the dog? I can positive train all I want. I can teach a heel over the period of 8-12 months. But who wants that? My dog needs to go for a proper walk, so I throw a prong on her.

How does alpha wolf correct lower wolf? They nip the neck? Is this any different from a prong? I don't think so..

I don't know if prongs are banned over here in Australia but I have never seen anyone use one. You can't just buy them....I would think you would need to get one from overseas like Leerburg etc if you wanted one.....I could be wrong but I have NEVER even seen one here.....yet people train their dogs without them. I will admit Luther could have maybe benefited from one early on BUT we don't have them so it just took more time.
E-collars are allowed but again have never seen one used.....it is not a popular training tool.
I have nothing against either as I have never used either so am in no position to have an opinion on them BUT to suggest that training can't be done without them seems a little far fetched considering in some countries they are not used at all.

And to imply that if you don't need a prong collar to control your dog that your dog is soft Blitzkrieg1 is.....well.....

[msvette2u]

Why assume "treat training" Blitz? It can be done without treats!

[qbchottu]

Interested to hear:
How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues without the use of any correction devices?

[sparra]

Originally Posted by qbchottu

Interested to hear:
How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues without the use of any correction devices?

No I don't do any of these things.
I do use my dog for herding our sheep along with our kelpie. He has to have pretty good self control and a VERY solid recall for this.....we muster 500-1000 sheep at a time so I consider him pretty clever to be able to do this job without too much damage He is not "untrained".
I just did some research and prongs are banned in my state (surprise, surprise ) so has me wondering about Police dogs over here and what they use.....would they use them if they were banned??
Seems i don't have an option anyway so even if I wanted to try one I couldn't thanks to our over the top laws!!!

[PatchonGSD]

Blitz - we can't use dimes here as screwdrivers - have to save as many as we can for gasoline..

LOL! Amen to that one.

[Kaity]

Originally Posted by qbchottu

Interested to hear:
How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues without the use of any correction devices?

I'm curious to see replies to this. How many people with seriously hard dogs train without these tools as well?