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Old 10-31-2012, 03:44 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Actually, it is really only Americans that feel that prong collars and e-collars are necessary to control or train dogs. The people in England (where the host is from) and in many countries, do not find them necessary, and see them as kind of barbaric.
I'm not from Europe, never have been there, and have no idea what tools they use for dog training. So I can't really comment further on that matter. What tools Europeans use for training wasn't really my point though.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm not from Europe, never have been there, and have no idea what tools they use for dog training. So I can't really comment further on that matter. What tools Europeans use for training wasn't really my point though.
No, but this was a Brittish talk show that Cesar was on. The collars are banned in England, so it seems like the majority of the population have a different idea than what you have, where you are talking about the majority of people. I don't even think the majority of people in the US like or use the collars. But you just think those people are unintelligent and would shove their dog's faces in poop.

It is interesting how when people don't feel the same way about things as we do, we pretty much label them as stupid or extremists.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
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But you just think those people are unintelligent and would shove their dog's faces in poop.

It is interesting how when people don't feel the same way about things as we do, we pretty much label them as stupid or extremists.
Hmmm, selzer- let my go ahead and quote what I actually wrote since nowhere did I call anyone unintelligent and nowhere did I label anyone stupid or extremist. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting that. Here's what I wrote:

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I'm surprised this thread has stayed so inactive... Nobody wants to point out that the host seems to have issues with prong collars, chock chains, and e-collars? I'm not particularly a Millan advocate, but it would be quite difficult indeed to support and talk about your view of aversive conditioning if the person you are talking with is adamantly against tools that the majority think are generally ok for use- like prong and e-collars.
Here I'm directing these statements about the majority of forum users- the majority (it seems) who participate in schutzhund or some other working sport and use both prong and e-collars. A lot of board members would not be able to have a civil conversation with that interviewer since the interviewer is obviously anti-aversive correction tools in dog training and not willing to listen to ideas on the matter.

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My take is that the majority of "average, joe-schmoe" pet owners are the type of people who view a prong collar as a torture device while in the same thought they smash their dog's face into a poo accident in the house, smack them on the head, and take them outside... Kinda hypocritical.
Here, as indicated, I'm directing this to average pet owners which are not board members. This board may have 20K+ members, but that's a drop in the bucket to the number of dog owners in America. The average pet owner hardly hangs out on a GSD forum... And if average pet owners are anything like my stepdad, grandpa, mom, and lots of other family- they do not understand how a prong or e-collar works and should be used and do view such aversive corrections as "torture." Yet these are the same people who grew up with "rub their nose in it!" ideas of potty training a dog. At least in my stretch of the woods, this is a beyond common approach. I called such people hypocritical not stupid, extreme, or unintelligent.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I would actually prefer to raise my puppy in Europe, where they can take their dogs on buses and into pubs, and in some places the leash is left at home. If they even own one, lol. And as I've posted in the past, I believe that the dogs are much much better for it. Just because something is banned, that doesn't mean a thing to me. All it means that bureaucracy has once again stuck it's nose into my business.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Lol he should have asked the host how many hyper aggressive dogs he has helped with his purely posative approach? Id love to see all these purely posative trainers who view CM as an abuser do their thing with same types of dogs he deals with. CM is too humble and his detractors often use that to their advantage. Lol and who says that people in the UK dont need prongs? Instead they can use chain chokes and we know how much better for dogs those are... Having seen common examples of "dog training" and ownership in the UK I am unimpressed..they are by no means an example to anyone.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Hmmm, selzer- let my go ahead and quote what I actually wrote since nowhere did I call anyone unintelligent and nowhere did I label anyone stupid or extremist. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting that. Here's what I wrote:



Here I'm directing these statements about the majority of forum users- the majority (it seems) who participate in schutzhund or some other working sport and use both prong and e-collars. A lot of board members would not be able to have a civil conversation with that interviewer since the interviewer is obviously anti-aversive correction tools in dog training and not willing to listen to ideas on the matter.



Here, as indicated, I'm directing this to average pet owners which are not board members. This board may have 20K+ members, but that's a drop in the bucket to the number of dog owners in America. The average pet owner hardly hangs out on a GSD forum... And if average pet owners are anything like my stepdad, grandpa, mom, and lots of other family- they do not understand how a prong or e-collar works and should be used and do view such aversive corrections as "torture." Yet these are the same people who grew up with "rub their nose in it!" ideas of potty training a dog. At least in my stretch of the woods, this is a beyond common approach. I called such people hypocritical not stupid, extreme, or unintelligent.
Your post talked about majorities, majorities of pet owners, the things the majority of people use, you suggest that people view them as torture items are the same type of people who put the dog's face in poo -- that suggests the people are not up to date, or are unintelligent, but you are not the only one, Larhage calls him a moron -- look that up in the dictionary.

If people do not like the way we train, they are morons.
It's a world filled with morons.

Cesar's methods are controversial. This site shows that. People who will not use his methods on this board do not smash their dogs' noses in poop, and hit them over the head. But we are the elite. We are the people on a GSD site.

Frankly, I think we are a spattering of the general population. Some have been in dogs for a lifetime, others have their very first dog. Some think that prong collars are unnecessary most of the time, and others think that eventually you will need one, while others think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

I think we are a bunch of idiots if we think that anyone who harbors a different view about how dogs should be trained is uninteligent or otherwise abuses their dogs to train them.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Well, once again selzer I hope your "we" comment isn't including me! Now you've added "moron" to the list of words I somehow used without actually typing? You can infer whatever you want to from what I wrote- that's your choice, but I've already elaborated for you the intent of my original post. If you choose to just ignore the elaboration and continue to put words in my mouth, then I can think of a good application for the words you keep saying I used...
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:33 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Prong collar aside, I would have been really angry when he told me that I punched the dogs. Because I was told that I punched a dog a few months ago. I didn't, and I had to defend myself against what someone "saw". I did take my arm and use my finger to get the dog's attention though. I'm telling you, CM handled it better than I did, lol.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Well, once again selzer I hope your "we" comment isn't including me! Now you've added "moron" to the list of words I somehow used without actually typing? You can infer whatever you want to from what I wrote- that's your choice, but I've already elaborated for you the intent of my original post. If you choose to just ignore the elaboration and continue to put words in my mouth, then I can think of a good application for the words you keep saying I used...

Yeah, well, I did say that Larhage called him a moron, if you read the post. '

I am actually in agreement with who ever said that Cesar should have known what he was in for going in. C'mon, there is a ban on prong collars in England, and they do not generally use crates either. What kind of professional dog-trainer celebrity wouldn't know that going in.

I don't think the host is a moron. He is speaking from the viewpoint of the popular beliefs in his country, that doesn't make him a moron.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:36 PM   #30 (permalink)
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This was an awful video. I believe e collars are illegal in England as well.

The big bad electric shock thru the collar just feels like if you shocked your hand on a door handle or something in the winter. Not that bad, gets the reaction we want. Poking the dog in the ribs, kicking his underbelly and snapping him out of the behaviour when he's focusing in on something for example, a leash aggressive dog. I'd like to see the host of this show walk a l/a dog past dog kennels, see how he does without a prong collar. How do you otherwise CORRECT the dog? I can positive train all I want. I can teach a heel over the period of 8-12 months. But who wants that? My dog needs to go for a proper walk, so I throw a prong on her.

How does alpha wolf correct lower wolf? They nip the neck? Is this any different from a prong? I don't think so..
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