British talk show host questions Cesar Millan

[Olivers mama]

Originally Posted by codmaster

I would love to see VS try the Husky or Malamute (can't remember off hand which breed it was) that came up the leash at Cesar in one often quoted show.

Wonder what treat she would have given that dog?

OMG - I had to LMAO when I read this - Thank You!

I get it that there are different training methods. IMO, I don't think people should be bad-mouthed because they don't use strictly positive methods like treats & clickers. Which is what commonly occurs here. From what I've read, the general consensus (in our new society) is positive-only training.

That's part of the reason we no longer work with local trainers. Thousands of dollars spent between 2 of them & it was worthless. When a K9 handler offered to evaluate - & then work with - our Big Rescue, we jumped at the offer. 1 - Because he knows dogs & specifically, GSDs. 2 - Most (not all - don't bite my head off) K9s are trained under a variety of circumstances. Not even close to 100% positive training. Additionally, no one wanted to tackle our 90 lb baby's biting problem. And, if you think I was gonna give her a steak dinner after biting me, you're wrong. He worked with her - including getting her to come up at me, mouth open, teeth barred - for a few weeks. He included some tips for her basic obedience, like my pet peeve - a dog pulling on the leash.

It's been a few months & she's MUCH improved. She's learned her boundaries. Only once has she come up at me & that was easy to stop. Now, had we adopted a new, young puppy, this whole process would've been much easier. Maybe clickers tickers & treats would've worked.

All I'm saying is that, unless you've dealt with a huge, aggressive, biting dog - please don't bad-mouth another's way of training. After all, there were years & years of Basic training that involved nothing more than a choke chain & a leather leash. No abuse, just rules.

As we've become more complacent (IMO ONLY) in our rules for child-rearing, we have followed that thinking down the ladder for our dogs. I even read (somewhere today, can't remember where) that the countries having the worst-behaved kids also have the worst-behaved dogs. The U.S. ranked pretty high on that list. I don't want ill-behaved kids OR dogs & don't like being around either one.

As a side note - I don't care if CM is "certified" as a "behaviorist" or not. From what I've personally experienced, that shingle hanging outside an trainer's home means little more than Ziva's turds to me. I want to see results, not someone patting themselves on their backs.

I would REALLY like to see VS work with the dogs that CM has & see which method works better for high-strung, stubborn dogs that bite.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by selzer

GSD13, the guy you called a MORON comes from a country where no one uses prong collars or e-collars. Somehow they manage to train dogs without using those devises. Their country bans them, so the opinions there are overwhelmingly negative toward such devices. I think it is kind of unfair to call someone a moron, considering that is someone who wouldn't be functional, and this guy actually hosts a talk show and therefore cannot be a moron. Oh!

On the other hand, Cesar comes from a place that doesn't use those methods either. But since he has been in the US, he has adopted these methods, and the talk show host knew that. So it was really a set up. Cesar should have known that. Really.

I find such devices unnecessary with my dogs. And I think Cesar's take on dog behavior theory, is based on some outdated erroneous studies of wolves living in captive packs. I just don't think it applies well to dogs, at least in my experience it has no place. I suppose there may be some crazy, high drive, high energy, high aggressive working dogs that either need a tougher stand, or have been conditioned from the beginning to require a tougher handler. I only know that the one dog that I had that was super high drive, high energy, nutbrain, and aggressive, I tried the compulsive alpha balony with him and it was a total flop. When he was four, I got a softee and learned to train using other approaches, and the first dog did respond to them better than the methods that Cesar has embraced.

Heh! Heh!

How about a US show dog from a very high ranked show kennel?

[KayleeGSD]

When it comes to any show you are seeing high lights of the story. Second you are seeing different angles too, and you are not able to take the scene into actual full view. We were not there in person...

Regardless when people watch a tv show even though there is a clear warning to not attempt these techniques yourself... Consult a professional... Cesar Milian said himself it is just a way and it is not the only way... I do not see any popular trainer as the dog god who can fix any problem with any dog. There is one simple fact that you have MANY ways to correct issues.

I will bring up a interesting case of Victoria Stilwell and Beniji...

"THIS DOG SHOULD BE PUT DOWN".... By Phone! - YouTube

No method is fail proof. I do not think this dog should have been put down. I bet if this dog was re-homed with the full knowledge of what had occurred to someone who can rehabilitate dogs he might of had a chance. No trainer is perfect every one makes mistakes. It is easy to point the finger when unfortunate things happen like Beniji. I can understand why they decided to put the dog down even though I disagree with it.

Yet Victoria Stilwell has had tons of success with many dogs and people. So has Cesar Milian. They both have their ways. Some things I agree with and other things I do not. I use what I think is best for me and my dog. In the end it is up to us to figure out what is the best way for our dogs. If I do not know then I will research and contact people who do know and go with a method I feel is right for us.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Olivers mama

OMG - I had to LMAO when I read this - Thank You!

I get it that there are different training methods. IMO, I don't think people should be bad-mouthed because they don't use strictly positive methods like treats & clickers. Which is what commonly occurs here. From what I've read, the general consensus (in our new society) is positive-only training.

That's part of the reason we no longer work with local trainers. Thousands of dollars spent between 2 of them & it was worthless. When a K9 handler offered to evaluate - & then work with - our Big Rescue, we jumped at the offer. 1 - Because he knows dogs & specifically, GSDs. 2 - Most (not all - don't bite my head off) K9s are trained under a variety of circumstances. Not even close to 100% positive training. Additionally, no one wanted to tackle our 90 lb baby's biting problem. And, if you think I was gonna give her a steak dinner after biting me, you're wrong. He worked with her - including getting her to come up at me, mouth open, teeth barred - for a few weeks. He included some tips for her basic obedience, like my pet peeve - a dog pulling on the leash.

It's been a few months & she's MUCH improved. She's learned her boundaries. Only once has she come up at me & that was easy to stop. Now, had we adopted a new, young puppy, this whole process would've been much easier. Maybe clickers tickers & treats would've worked.

All I'm saying is that, unless you've dealt with a huge, aggressive, biting dog - please don't bad-mouth another's way of training. After all, there were years & years of Basic training that involved nothing more than a choke chain & a leather leash. No abuse, just rules.

As we've become more complacent (IMO ONLY) in our rules for child-rearing, we have followed that thinking down the ladder for our dogs. I even read (somewhere today, can't remember where) that the countries having the worst-behaved kids also have the worst-behaved dogs. The U.S. ranked pretty high on that list. I don't want ill-behaved kids OR dogs & don't like being around either one.

As a side note - I don't care if CM is "certified" as a "behaviorist" or not. From what I've personally experienced, that shingle hanging outside an trainer's home means little more than Ziva's turds to me. I want to see results, not someone patting themselves on their backs.

I would REALLY like to see VS work with the dogs that CM has & see which method works better for high-strung, stubborn dogs that bite.

Actually, here in the US, and on this site, prong collars and e-collars are pretty much the norm. PetsMart won't use them, but no one cites PetsMart as dog-training gurus.

In fact, if you say something like prong collars are unnecessary or e-collars are inhumane people on this site will jump all in your shtuff, and fast. And then the mods will give YOU a warning. Something like inciting a riot.

But I have a question for you: Do you get the impression that dogs on the whole are better behave in England or in the US?

For myself, I don't know how you get worse behaved that the dogs in the US. And every training collar under the sun is employed here.

I think that the majority of dog bites happen from fear aggressive dogs. One can make progress with a fear-aggressive dog by being positive, consistent, and gaining the dog's trust by being a good leader, not overwhelming the dog right out of the box. Whether or not you use a prong collar for such a dog, if you cover the rest of the good leadership, you should make progress. No, you do not need a prong collar for a biting dog. And it is possible that a prong collar would be counter-productive.

Treats are a tool. The idea of giving a dog a steak dinner after it bites you, shows how you really do not understand positive training at all.
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[GSD13]

Originally Posted by selzer

GSD13, the guy you called a MORON comes from a country where no one uses prong collars or e-collars. Somehow they manage to train dogs without using those devises. Their country bans them, so the opinions there are overwhelmingly negative toward such devices. I think it is kind of unfair to call someone a moron, considering that is someone who wouldn't be functional, and this guy actually hosts a talk show and therefore cannot be a moron.

Really??? because you have a tv show means you MUST be functional & therefore CANNOT be considered a MORON, I guess that all depends on your definition of functional. I personally think he's a MORON but hey, what do I know I'm just an American.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by GSD13

Really??? because you have a tv show means you MUST be functional & therefore CANNOT be considered a MORON, I guess that all depends on your definition of functional. I personally think he's a MORON but hey, what do I know I'm just an American.

I am just going by the definition of moron: "Psychology A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."

I really think that using terms like moron and idiot mostly indicates the intelligence of the poster, moreso than the person of whom the poster posts.

[GSD13]

Originally Posted by selzer

I am just going by the definition of moron: "Psychology A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."

That definition fits that tv host to a TEE!!! I guess it doesn't say much about his audience.

[PuppyKono]

"Well we dont beat our children."

Ahh so many things wrong with this interview... First he doesn't beat the dogs he does a quick touch so that the dog actually focuses instead of staying in one mood. Second the whole comment about "Well we dont put these tools on our children" Well dogs are not children! Theyre dogs... Yes people dont use the tools correctly but when they do use it its that touch connection to send a message to the dog to alert it or its telling it snap out of that mood or listen. We dont beat our children because we can communicate to kids to tell them what right and wrong. There are many ways to teach a dog but when they dont get the message you cant always use food and you cant use your high pitch happy voice because it doesn't work all the time.
I think they were just thinking about normal everyday dogs that behave and dont have aggression problems. (Did they even watch a couple of his shows) Dogs with very aggressive behaviors have to be dealt with. Just like how people go to the Psychologist for help but only dogs can't communicate and we cant communicate with them. (Unless someone can speak dog ) I mean think of all the dogs that have been saved from being killed due to the aggressive behavior. Not every dog is the same just like not every person is the same. Maybe if they took the time to learn what a PRONG collar was and not call it a collar with spikes on it.. more people wouldn't be thinking it was a torture device.
Some people need to get educated about these issues and not act like people try to harm their dogs on an everyday basis.

[selzer]

It is hard to understand the need to be educated on something that your government has banned due to its perception as being inhumane.

[codmaster]

Originally Posted by selzer

Actually, here in the US, and on this site, prong collars and e-collars are pretty much the norm. PetsMart won't use them, but no one cites PetsMart as dog-training gurus.

In fact, if you say something like prong collars are unnecessary or e-collars are inhumane people on this site will jump all in your shtuff, and fast. And then the mods will give YOU a warning. Something like inciting a riot.

But I have a question for you: Do you get the impression that dogs on the whole are better behave in England or in the US?

For myself, I don't know how you get worse behaved that the dogs in the US. And every training collar under the sun is employed here.

I think that the majority of dog bites happen from fear aggressive dogs. One can make progress with a fear-aggressive dog by being positive, consistent, and gaining the dog's trust by being a good leader, not overwhelming the dog right out of the box. Whether or not you use a prong collar for such a dog, if you cover the rest of the good leadership, you should make progress. No, you do not need a prong collar for a biting dog. And it is possible that a prong collar would be counter-productive.

Treats are a tool. The idea of giving a dog a steak dinner after it bites you, shows how you really do not understand positive training at all.
[/IMG]

Can you mention where you got this idea? What are you basing this statement on? The vast majority of dog trainers in the US do NOT use a prong.

I am assuming that you are not too familar with the US and that is understandable.