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Old 12-18-2012, 09:55 AM   #101 (permalink)
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I'm so tired of every single criticism of Cesar Milan being attributed to jealousy by his fans, as if he's perfect and there couldn't possibly be any other reason not to approve of everything he does. C'mon - seriously?
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:41 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Seems to be the same with all "famous" trainers.

Either they are nearly a "god" and can "fix" every doggy problem or they are mean, nasty to dogs and abuse them or just clueless mand stupid.

Generally thinking, I really doubt that there ever will exist a single method/approach to solving every problem of mis behaving dogs.

To me, a "pro" trainer has a wide variety of "tools" at their disposal and choice and can adjust which one or ones that they pull out in any specific individual case.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:21 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Seems to be the same with all "famous" trainers.

Either they are nearly a "god" and can "fix" every doggy problem or they are mean, nasty to dogs and abuse them or just clueless mand stupid.

Generally thinking, I really doubt that there ever will exist a single method/approach to solving every problem of mis behaving dogs.

To me, a "pro" trainer has a wide variety of "tools" at their disposal and choice and can adjust which one or ones that they pull out in any specific individual case.
Heck - I'd be happy if we could CM without the animosity that comes every single time this man's name is brought up. He's not a God Amongst Dog trainers. nor is he a villian. Every method should fit somewhere in the middle. We have a dog that's been trained - by outside trainers, then us, as we were told - with treats. To the point she'd only respond if there was a treat.

Our society has changed. And many iof the child-rearing methods have trickled down to training dogs. Spare the Rod & Spoil the Dog. If it sits on cue, please have a steak dinner ready for it. Just as sparing all children from the 'rod' doesn't work on all kids, so too - IMO - is the current all-positive dog training methods. When we removed all treats & used the prong to correct her horrible pulling on the leash, Ziva learned to heal correctly. She still gets treats, but nowhere near as often as we were "trained" to do by these expensive trainers. And she's a much better dog, now that she's learned she has boundaries & that there are consequences when she misbehaves. Expecially when she bites. I have Zero tolerance for that. When you're dealing with a teenage or adult rescue, it is a WHOLE lot different than, say, using a clicker on a puppy. puppies are clean slates. Older dogs have baggage.

CM has been known to be physical wuith difficult dogs. VS is the polar opposite, as she uses only treats. Somewhere in the middle fits us. I respect both, I just pick & choose what methods work for a particular situation with this particular dog.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:35 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Seems to be the same with all "famous" trainers.

Either they are nearly a "god" and can "fix" every doggy problem or they are mean, nasty to dogs and abuse them or just clueless mand stupid.

Generally thinking, I really doubt that there ever will exist a single method/approach to solving every problem of mis behaving dogs.

To me, a "pro" trainer has a wide variety of "tools" at their disposal and choice and can adjust which one or ones that they pull out in any specific individual case.
Agreed! Excellent post.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:28 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Heck - I'd be happy if we could CM without the animosity that comes every single time this man's name is brought up. He's not a God Amongst Dog trainers. nor is he a villian. Every method should fit somewhere in the middle. We have a dog that's been trained - by outside trainers, then us, as we were told - with treats. To the point she'd only respond if there was a treat.

Our society has changed. And many iof the child-rearing methods have trickled down to training dogs. Spare the Rod & Spoil the Dog. If it sits on cue, please have a steak dinner ready for it. Just as sparing all children from the 'rod' doesn't work on all kids, so too - IMO - is the current all-positive dog training methods. When we removed all treats & used the prong to correct her horrible pulling on the leash, Ziva learned to heal correctly. She still gets treats, but nowhere near as often as we were "trained" to do by these expensive trainers. And she's a much better dog, now that she's learned she has boundaries & that there are consequences when she misbehaves. Expecially when she bites. I have Zero tolerance for that. When you're dealing with a teenage or adult rescue, it is a WHOLE lot different than, say, using a clicker on a puppy. puppies are clean slates. Older dogs have baggage.

CM has been known to be physical wuith difficult dogs. VS is the polar opposite, as she uses only treats. Somewhere in the middle fits us. I respect both, I just pick & choose what methods work for a particular situation with this particular dog.
Agree!

Some dogs with some personalities will learn and obey very well with literally no physical corrections but others need a gentle reminder now and then who is on the handle side of the leash.

If anyone hasn't experienced a dog who is stubborn and wants to do things their way - then they would never realize this fact of doggy life.

Before one critizes a physical correction or even a tough tug on the leash - try handling a dog who might decide one day to "come up the leash". Or try handling another dog who has already bitten his owner/handler and has the ability and temperament to do so again.

Or even just a VERY independent dog who is extremely self confident and doesn't "need" another leader - the opposite of so many dogs today who are dependent on their human leader.

OTOH, if a handler gets the first kind of compliant, almost naturally obedient submissive dog, then wonders can be acomplished without a physical correction and with the use of treats and praise.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:44 AM   #106 (permalink)
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I'm so tired of every single criticism of Cesar Milan being attributed to jealousy by his fans, as if he's perfect and there couldn't possibly be any other reason not to approve of everything he does. C'mon - seriously?
All I said was that Cesar is very good, of course you would interpret that to mean that "he's perfect". I also stated that many people who do criticise him do it out of jealousy. That, obviously is just my opinion because I don't see what he does that causes a certain group of people to lash out with such vitriol against him or his training methods. If the haters out there are so much better have them make their own show & prove it. I agree with Olivers mama & codmaster, there is NO one way to train a dog... or any animal or human for that matter but what Cesar does works well for him & many many others out there. I thank him for showing the everyday Joe how to get a dog to become well balanced so it will listen & behave accordingly.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:26 AM   #107 (permalink)
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All I said was that Cesar is very good, of course you would interpret that to mean that "he's perfect". I also stated that many people who do criticise him do it out of jealousy.
You misunderstood my point. I didn't think YOU meant that he's perfect, it's just that when there's ANY criticism of him whatsoever people flip out and immediately jump to his defense as if there isn't anything that he's not doing absolutely perfectly. How dare you criticize Cesar Milan! And very, very frequently they attribute that criticism to jealously - again, as if there couldn't possibly be any other explanation. You're new here, so you haven't read and/or participated in the dozens of Cesar threads going back years and years, like I have. After a while a pattern begins to emerge. Well actually, the pattern didn't take any time at all to emerge and hasn't changed in the slightest in all that time, in all those discussions.

Frankly, it baffles me. If he's not a perfect trainer, (excuse me, behaviorist ) then some criticism of him and his methods would be warranted, yes? But if the only possible reason for criticism could be jealously, then he must be doing everything perfectly and no criticism is ever warranted. See how that follows logically?

But I also haven't read anything negative about him that I thought smacked even the slightest bit of jealously. I really don't get where that idea comes from, but a lot of people certainly seem convinced of it. Some examples of people whose criticism is clearly and solely driven by jealously would be extremely helpful in furthering that argument.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:41 AM   #108 (permalink)
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You misunderstood my point. I didn't think YOU meant that he's perfect, it's just that when there's ANY criticism of him whatsoever people flip out and immediately jump to his defense as if there isn't anything that he's not doing absolutely perfectly. How dare you criticize Cesar Milan! And very, very frequently they attribute that criticism to jealously - again, as if there couldn't possibly be any other explanation. You're new here, so you haven't read and/or participated in the dozens of Cesar threads going back years and years, like I have. After a while a pattern begins to emerge. Well actually, the pattern didn't take any time at all to emerge and hasn't changed in the slightest in all that time, in all those discussions.

Frankly, it baffles me. If he's not a perfect trainer, (excuse me, behaviorist ) then some criticism of him and his methods would be warranted, yes? But if the only possible reason for criticism could be jealously, then he must be doing everything perfectly and no criticism is ever warranted. See how that follows logically?

But I also haven't read anything negative about him that I thought smacked even the slightest bit of jealously. I really don't get where that idea comes from, but a lot of people certainly seem convinced of it. Some examples of people whose criticism is clearly and solely driven by jealously would be extremely helpful in furthering that argument.
If you were to read the various and sundry threads critical of Ceasar shows it is very obvious that some of the people have never trained a hard, aggressive dog in their lives and have no clue as to what this entails. How about the messages that mention what they "know" goes on behaind the scenes of the TV show?

I would love to see VS try the Husky or Malamute (can't remember off hand which breed it was) that came up the leash at Cesar in one often quoted show.

Wonder what treat she would have given that dog?
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:27 AM   #109 (permalink)
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All I said was that Cesar is very good, of course you would interpret that to mean that "he's perfect". I also stated that many people who do criticise him do it out of jealousy. That, obviously is just my opinion because I don't see what he does that causes a certain group of people to lash out with such vitriol against him or his training methods.


Cassidy's Mom, I understand what you're saying but I think you left out the sentence that followed my original statement (highlighted above), very NY Times like by the way. I don't understand all the hubbub about what Cesar does, I personally think he's very good @ what he does & he helps the regular person to understand his/her dog. Do I think he's infallible, of course not, but he's actually providing a service because many of these dogs would have been put to sleep if it wasn't for him & who here would have preferred that? I would think NO one, so is he hurting the dogs?, I don't see it & I've watched many of his shows. Is he helping the owners to be more able to control their dogs, I say yes. The reason I mentioned jealousy is because I don't see what he's doing as wrong, but that's just me, if people, like you say aren't jealous of him then why such hate??? Again, I am not saying Cesar cannot be criticised, I'm just saying I don't agree with the crticisms.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:12 PM   #110 (permalink)
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GSD13, the guy you called a MORON comes from a country where no one uses prong collars or e-collars. Somehow they manage to train dogs without using those devises. Their country bans them, so the opinions there are overwhelmingly negative toward such devices. I think it is kind of unfair to call someone a moron, considering that is someone who wouldn't be functional, and this guy actually hosts a talk show and therefore cannot be a moron.

On the other hand, Cesar comes from a place that doesn't use those methods either. But since he has been in the US, he has adopted these methods, and the talk show host knew that. So it was really a set up. Cesar should have known that. Really.

I find such devices unnecessary with my dogs. And I think Cesar's take on dog behavior theory, is based on some outdated erroneous studies of wolves living in captive packs. I just don't think it applies well to dogs, at least in my experience it has no place. I suppose there may be some crazy, high drive, high energy, high aggressive working dogs that either need a tougher stand, or have been conditioned from the beginning to require a tougher handler. I only know that the one dog that I had that was super high drive, high energy, nutbrain, and aggressive, I tried the compulsive alpha balony with him and it was a total flop. When he was four, I got a softee and learned to train using other approaches, and the first dog did respond to them better than the methods that Cesar has embraced.
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