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Old 11-12-2012, 03:05 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Olivers mama View Post
OK - we can all see that CM provoked the dog. Course, he WAS there to see the dog in action, so he HAD to provoke, IMO. I guess what I have the hardest time dealing with, is all the bashing of what he did. Yet, when you ask what someone else would do in the same position, you get nothing.
There was a previous recent thread where many people have already said how they would have dealt with Holly. I don't think it's necessary to rehash that exact same conversation all over again here, you should be able to find the thread if you'd like to read it and haven't seen it yet. There was even a video posted that pointed out all the warning signs in advance of the bite, and at least one link where an expert in canine aggression said exactly what he would have done instead. And no, it's really wasn't necessary to provoke her to bite, she was clearly showing her discomfort well in advance of the bite, which should have shown him what her threshold was. Once that threshold is determined, you work from there, there was no need to push past that point. He KNEW that she would bite if provoked, because she already HAD bitten. The only point of doing what he did was the drama factor, for television ratings.

I'm sorry you've had so many problems with your girl, and I wish you had been able to find competent help sooner. Good luck with her, you've taken on a challenge that many people would not.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:51 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Whatever the posts on a previous thread...this thread was started anew. Since the question was asked, 'How would YOU deal with this?', I don't think I should have to go to another thread to find the answer. I don't "play well" with avoidance. If I ask a question, it's because I'm looking for an answer. And that answer shouldn't be - "go look on another thread".

Mute point, I guess. But hey, that's me - always trying to make a point when it's impossible to do so.

Thanks for the well-wishes on our overgrown pup - <-------- I mean, seriously, who could PTS this playful, starving-for-love dog carrying her sock monkey? Don't know that I'd ever do this Rescue thing again, but am happy we did this time. Then again - provided we can beat this cancer - we've learned a LOT about adopting an abused rescue. Puppies may be easier, but maybe we're meant to handle the tougher ones. At any rate - we wouldn't trade this girl for anything.

Funny - when my oncologist asks if I want anything for pain or an anti-depressant....I just say 'No' - I've got my 4 house kitties & a loving GSD. Add my hubby to that - I'm good to go. I have all the Furry Valium I need.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:08 PM   #93 (permalink)
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I wasn't trying to be evasive, it's just that we seem to be continually rehashing the same Cesar debates over and over again on the board, and the previous Holly thread has several hundred posts. I'll try to look for it tonight when I get home and either link to the posts I was referring to, or copy them here. I thought it was pretty interesting.

BTW, can I ask which rescue you got her from? You can PM me if you prefer. I suspect I know, but I'd be interested to find out if I'm right.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:58 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Here's are a couple of my posts from the other thread - one of them has the video showing a breakdown of Holly's behavior in slowmo:

IMO Animal Abuse charges should be filed agained him

IMO Animal Abuse charges should be filed agained him

The alternative to provoking a fearful dog to the point that it bites:

Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: September 2012

Quote:
How would I address this issue? That is a longer post, but it would start with not pushing the dog beyond the first warning signals, but using those to establish the parameters of the problem behavior and then proceeding, gaining the dog's confidence and slowly desensitizing the dog to the particular behavioral issue and pressing those parameters slowly back to help the dog make the right choices-and then reinforce those choices.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:22 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Speaking of Cesar, did anyone hear about this?

‘Dog Whisperer’ Cesar Millan Reveals Suicide Attempt - ABC News

Sorry if it's old news, I hadn't heard. I hope he's felling better now.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:18 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Interested to hear:
How many of you that do not use prongs or ecollars do schutzhund and other high level sport? What about PD and SAR work? Have you reliably trained and titled your dog in the aforementioned venues without the use of any correction devices?
My ex was a police dog handler for ten years and a police dog instructor, with two tactical firearms support dogs, for fifteen years in a UK police force. He reliably trained all his dogs without the use of prong or ecollars.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:19 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
Here's are a couple of my posts from the other thread - one of them has the video showing a breakdown of Holly's behavior in slowmo:

IMO Animal Abuse charges should be filed agained him

IMO Animal Abuse charges should be filed agained him

The alternative to provoking a fearful dog to the point that it bites:

Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: September 2012

I read the last link document and it certainly sounds like mr. crosby is a true expert and can "probably" fix any problem aggressive dog.

He clearly is much more highly qualified than uncertified Cesar, that is for sure. Mr Crosby even quotes a few of the organizations that do certify trainers and implies that the paper certifications would ensure (imply?) that this piece of paper makes them more qualified to "fix" aggressive dogs. That is a good thing to know when looking for a trainer to help with a food aggressive (or other aggression) dog.

It also does sound (to me anyway) like he is one of the positive only trainers that frown on any "punishment" whatsoever.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:50 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
It looked like CM got cornered an was very uncomfortable. I actually felt bad for him. I disagree with a lot of what host was saying. It seemed as if they only brought Him on the the show to attack him. I'm not really a CM fan but this didn't seem right.

As for the use of tools. They are tools, why not use them? Not every dog can be trained purely positive and not every dog can take corrections. I thought that's why we have all these different training techniques and tools. So we can modify styles to fit each individual dog.
I agree with you 100%
There are somethings that my dog will absolutely not respond to with purely positive training.

This host's hostile attitude toward CM was completely out of line. Whether he likes his methods or not..
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:55 PM   #99 (permalink)
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I think there are some dog/handler teams that can't achieve their goals purely positive. Might a different owner/handler achieve that goal with the dog in a positive manner? I think probably. And, I think that some handlers can get positive methods to work with some of their dogs, and not with others, but that doesn't mean that positive methods would not work with the dog, just not with that handler.

But that is just an opinion. I think a good trainer measures the handler as much as the dog when suggesting how they handle the dog.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:24 AM   #100 (permalink)
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I think Cesar is very good & that host is a MORON, jealousy gets the best of people.

Last edited by GSD13; 12-18-2012 at 04:27 AM.
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