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Old 09-30-2012, 12:48 PM   #261 (permalink)
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Sheilah:

I really appreciate your rational, realistic responses on multiple topics.

It's truly refreshing.
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Old 09-30-2012, 12:59 PM   #262 (permalink)
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I disagree, because VS's methods aren't going to get anyone's face bitten off like when the CM fan owner tries CMs way, in order to "dominate" their own dog


What damage is that? Their dog gained a bunch of weight??
What damage has resulted from clicker training?

It's pretty tough to screw up a dog with reward based training...
And I disagree that VS's methods aren't going to get anyone bitten in the face. Because ANY method can be misunderstood and used incorrectly. I can think of a handful of dog's that I have met over my lifetime that would have bitten any body part they could have gotten a hold of if someone had blown an air horn in their face.

I saw a fearful GSP several years ago that was owned by an idiot who had watched Victoria Stillwell and liked how "positive" and reward based her methods were. The fearful dog would bark and growl as people walked past the ground floor apartment the dog lived in. The city Greenbelt that runs along the Boise River was just outside the apartment, so you can imagine the foot traffic. A bark collar was too "aversive" according to the owner, so she purchased an air horn and blasted it in the dog's face whenever the dog even looked at the patio door. Guess what? The dog got to the point where any aerosol can caused it to panic and if it couldn't get away, it would bite.

Or how about the owner with a young Golden Retriever who had a little leash reactivity? This owner used only a flat, buckle collar and a bag of treats. Unfortunately, because the owner was so slow in his timing, he was rewarding the wrong behavior. No, the dog didn't gain a bunch of weight, msvette. The dog was rewarded for getting stiff and up on it's toes, which in turned ticked off many dogs that saw that as a challenge and a warning and caused many a dog fight...which did nothing but reinforce the Golden's original reactivity and made it worse. Tell me how a clueless owner didn't make that situation worse, despite using a flat collar and treats?

I have watched many people do nothing but confuse and distract their dogs with poorly used clickers. Again, I maintain that the tool or method is of much less importance than how well it is used by the person on the other end of the leash.

I spend a lot of time talking to dog owners. I ask questions and listen to what they say (rather than lecture at them). I love sitting in on obedience classes and agility classes and listening to what the owners have to say. I have learned so much about how people see the relationship they have with their dog. The one thing that I can say with absolute conviction is that NO ONE method makes an owner immune from screwing it up.
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Old 09-30-2012, 01:02 PM   #263 (permalink)
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Quote:
NO ONE method makes an owner immune from screwing it up.
I'd agree, but also you must realize, it's the owner's implementation of the method, not the method itself.
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Old 09-30-2012, 01:27 PM   #264 (permalink)
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I'd agree, but also you must realize, it's the owner's implementation of the method, not the method itself.
Isn't that what I have been saying? Any owner can screw it up, regardless of method. The implementation of any method is where the rubber meets the road. If you can't implement it correctly, even the most benign method can have scary results.

So, just because some idiot sitting in their living room can't implement a method they just saw on t.v. doesn't necessarily mean the method itself is flawed. It means the person on the other end of the leash can't implement it. It doesn't matter if it is Ceasar Milan and his use of flooding or Victoria Stillwell and her use of a clicker. An idiot is an idiot.

Mzvette, you often recommend a 2 week shut down to people on this forum. Is your method flawed if someone reads it, implements it incorrectly and then comes back here to report they didn't get the same results you did? Where does the fault lay in that case?

I am not in any way defending Ceasar Milan as some dog training God. He seems to have little understanding of training, and his explanations of why something is happening is often full of his own, funky terminology. But a lot of what he advocates for has made life easier for dogs in general. Increased exercise and an acceptance of a dog as a dog is chief.
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Old 09-30-2012, 01:28 PM   #265 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Sheilah:

I really appreciate your rational, realistic responses on multiple topics.

It's truly refreshing.
Thank you very much. That made my day!
Sheilah
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:00 PM   #266 (permalink)
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I have never heard any of the adopters mentioning VS, as opposed to CM whom they idolize. The problem with CM is not even his training methods. It seems that his followers tend to adopt his arrogance first. After watching a few episodes they convince themselves that they are training experts and all input from people other than CM is rejected. It is also hard to convince them that a young, high-energy German Shepherd needs to run free to burn off excess excess energy. Most CM style walkers don't walk enough to cover the needs a high-energy young dog. Sadly the half a handful trainers in the area that can handle a GSD are simply way out of the price range of our average adopter or the average person in general. Two are pretty abusive with the dogs and I would not send adopters to them. The many trainers that pop up everywhere like fru-fru breeds, some of them would simply send away GSDs that are more effort. Our volunteers are much more experienced and knowledgable than most area trainers and they offers assistance to those who are not too obsessed with CM to listen to advice.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:24 PM   #267 (permalink)
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Sorry, but that is the worst possible method for dealing with resource guarding. The best way is to PREVENT if from happening in the first place, but if you missed that boat there are other, much better, ways of fixing this problem. Maybe not with that particular dog, since this situation was allowed to build over a period of years, but if they had dealt with this at the first signs that it might be becoming an issue, who knows? A dog who trusts you has no need to guard resources. Dominating a dog and forcing them to submit does not build trust.

Baloney. That dog is showing numerous signs of fear, discomfort, and avoidance, which Cesar ignores while he continues to advance in a confrontational way.
.............
Maybe the trainer needed to see how far the dog would push it's aggression if the dog was pushed (maybe by your small child?).

IMO, better to let a pro try this than a family member, I think?

I don't think that I would do a "time out" or some such nonsense if one of my dogs ever showed food aggression (or other true aggression) to me or any family member. No I suspect that the dog would learn right then and there who was "pack leader" in that house right then.

BUT, if the dog is a dog raised from a puppy, it should NEVER come to a confrontation with an adult dog. If it does there were some serious errors in raising that poor dog!
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:50 PM   #268 (permalink)
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I think that if you need to let a pup or dog know who the pack leader is, then your leadership technique is broken.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:14 PM   #269 (permalink)
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I think that if you need to let a pup or dog know who the pack leader is, then your leadership technique is broken.
If you don't let them know who is in charge, they learn it how?

I guess that a few of my dogs must have been slow learners (by themselves) as they learned much better when I showed them!
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:18 PM   #270 (permalink)
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You don't HAVE to "show them".
Good gosh. We have thumbs, they don't. We operate can openers and we hold the magic key to the food bowls, they don't.
By sheer default we are their leaders.

But once again - Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

I'm finding it fascinating you're reviving months old threads to rehash this all.
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