Shock collar!!!! Some of u might be interestd

[ozzymama]

I think you will have groups and organizations against everything. E-collars is no different, of course there will be persons for and against them. At the end of the day it is a personal preference. I have never used one and to be honest would prefer never to have to, of course I felt the same way about the prong, however without it I probably never would have gotten Ozzy's pulling under control and I would have one arm which drags the ground and one which doesn't.
It doesn't matter what method you use to train your dog, there will be people vehmently against it and those who stand up and applaud you. Both parties have no right to say anything about it. Cruelty, pain, abuse mean different things to different people. And varying degrees exist within each in regards to each word. I make my 14 year old collie go up and down 22 stairs each day several times a day and all she gets is a baby asprin for pain. Some people would think I was horribly cruel, would think a dog that age I must be ignoring her pain. Same dog walked over 5kms on Sunday with us....... Slept most of Monday but did the walk no problem!

The thing for me is I have never had a dog requiring a shock collar, prior to Ozzy I never had a dog requiring a prong, Sandi never wore a leash until we got Ozzy, she was off-lead trained and perfect at being off-lead. So I cannot say what I would or would not try to train my dog. I know what would be my last resort........ And if it were a choice I had to make I would hate for anyone to have anything to say about it. Owning dogs is hard, you have to be responsible for them 24/7, you have to watch them, their diet, their coat, their training, protect and nurture them. I mean with kids, ya just throw a piece of astroturf down, enough food for the night and out you go, dogs, now that is a difficult creature to raise. (Being slightly sarcastic, a non-breeder so I do make cracks like that to the chagrin of my breeder friends) The fact of the matter is it is an individual choice, not always one made lightly and no matter what you do, at some point in some way an individual or group of people is going to have something to say about something you do. That I believe is the crux. A group has formed on facebook, (insert nasty comment about facebook addicts here LOL) against something that is controversial in the dog world, but something that garners support from non-sporting, competitive, working dog owners, people who may not understand how or why a product is used, even those of us who do understand don't always like it.
I think the world just loves controversy.
Sorry for being long-winded, off now to start a blog about how I don't like picking up dog crap, anyone want to join my facebook page?

[mjbgsd]

I've never thought of them as cruel, it's the people behind them that use it wrong.

[TxRider]

Maybe someone should tell this FB group they should ban these abhorrent shock devices used on humans as well...

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[selzer]

All of my dogs are well trained without any type of correction collar. I can take them to parks and run them off-lead. Their recall is excellent. I have called them off of actively chasing rabbits, and they have complied, no problem.

If I had a dog that could not be called off, prey drive too high to listen to my recall, I would not give them the opportunity to run after something in the road. That is simple.

As for my solar powered fence that is connected to my back gate, I have been zapped by it numerous times. The dogs stay away from it. But it is not there for when I am with them. It is there in the event that I did not latch a kennel gate properly and my dog is now in the yard. They stay away from my fences and my gates. It is a last defence agaist the possibilty that one of my dogs might get out and running around loose in my neighborhood can easily get a dog killed by farmers, hunters, and cars in the roadway. It has nothing whatsoever to do with training the dog. It has to do with containing the dog when you are not home to supervise.

An e-fence or a cattle fence is not how I am containing my dogs, they are contained in kennels. Only if they got out of a kennel would they ever be in my fenced area. This is fenced around with visible fencing that keep out coyotes and raccoons. The weak point is the gate. And that is where I have the added solar wire.

I am an electrical engineer and know about Alternating Current and Direct Current, I have been zapped with both times more times than I want to think about. And I know why and how each is dangerous. I may just have a little more understanding of this than the knowledgeable Lou Castle. There have probably been more deaths due to stun guns run from batteries, than from electric fences, but whatever.

Perhaps the Knowledgeable Lou is not trying to convert, and not trying to annoy, but I think he should stop suggesting that MY dogs are not trained, because MY dogs ARE trained, and have been trained without the use of his nasty little gadgets.

[Liesje]

I do not view e-collars as containment devices and am not comfortable with e-fences or any sort of live wire. I think that is a common misconception, that people only use them because they have to "resort" to them and that they are only used for containment or for recall. I own and use an e-collar and do not use it for containment or recall, nor is it something I "resort" to using. I use whatever tool I feel is most appropriate given the dog or the skill. I don't try food and then switch to a prong and then an e-collar if things don't work out. If the tool I choose is not working, then I'm doing something wrong. It has nothing to do with the tool. When I use the e-collar, I use it first because that's the tool that makes sense, not because I've tried other tools and failed. Incidentally, I've never used or tried using an e-collar on my highest energy, highest drive, Schutzhund dog. It's never been the right tool for what we've intended to accomplished.

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted by selzer

All of my dogs are well trained without any type of correction collar. I can take them to parks and run them off-lead. Their recall is excellent. I have called them off of actively chasing rabbits, and they have complied, no problem.

Some reason you feel the need to tell us this? I don't see how it has anything to do with the topic under discussion.

Originally Posted by selzer

If I had a dog that could not be called off, prey drive too high to listen to my recall, I would not give them the opportunity to run after something in the road. That is simple.

So in other words you'd manage them. As any reasonable person knows since management depends on humans to do things; it always will break down. NO ONE on the planet always does everything perfectly. And so one day you, or someone else. will leave a gate open. You, or someone else, will forget to securely lock or close it. You or someone else will not put a collar on correctly and a dog will pull out of it. A leash will break. The dog will pull it out of your hand. If you deny these things can happen, you'll be lying. If they haven't happened yet, it's just a matter of time.

And when it does you dogs (perhaps not the ones you own at this moment) will be off to do as they please. If your methods are so ineffective that the dogs have not successfully be trained not to chase they will, if they come across the right situation.

Originally Posted by selzer

As for my solar powered fence that is connected to my back gate, I have been zapped by it numerous times. The dogs stay away from it. But it is not there for when I am with them. It is there in the event that I did not latch a kennel gate properly and my dog is now in the yard. They stay away from my fences and my gates. It is a last defence agaist the possibilty that one of my dogs might get out and running around loose in my neighborhood can easily get a dog killed by farmers, hunters, and cars in the roadway. It has nothing whatsoever to do with training the dog. It has to do with containing the dog when you are not home to supervise.

You've simply made the decision that your use of a charged fence is OK but using an Ecollar is not. The fact remains that your fence puts out over a half million times more power than an Ecollar used as I advocate. It's a hypocritical view at best.

Originally Posted by selzer

An e-fence or a cattle fence is not how I am containing my dogs, they are contained in kennels. Only if they got out of a kennel would they ever be in my fenced area. [Emphasis added]

And so we can see that "if they got out of a kennel" they'd be exposed to the charged fence. It's pretty funny that you're in denial about this obvious fact! The fact that you use it only as a last defense does not change the fact that you do, in fact, use it. So that you can feel good about yourself, you use the excuse that it's "only" a "last resort containment." The obvious fact is that it's still there and it's still in use. Use whatever rationalization makes you feel good but you should simply admit that you're using a charged fence that puts out LOTS more power than an Ecollar used as I advocate, instead of hiding behind a rationalization.

Originally Posted by selzer

I am an electrical engineer and know about Alternating Current and Direct Current, I have been zapped with both times more times than I want to think about. And I know why and how each is dangerous. I may just have a little more understanding of this than the knowledgeable Lou Castle.

Perhaps and perhaps not. But AGAIN this has nothing to do with the subject of discussion. It's already been shown that you're living in denial of the reality that you use a charged fence, something that puts out FAR MORE power than an Ecollar. Somehow you think that's OK but using an Ecollar is not. Can you say "double standard?"

Originally Posted by selzer

There have probably been more deaths due to stun guns run from batteries, than from electric fences, but whatever.

Please provide support for this statement. Without it, it's just another worthless opinion.

In any case, it's an apples and oranges comparison. A stun gun is meant to incapacitate a person by "short circuiting" the electrical pulses that control his muscles and a charged fence is meant to cause pain to whoever or whatever touches it. Two COMPLETELY different ends. AGAIN your statement has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. Just another diversion! lol.

And let's not forget that your fence charger runs from batteries. The solar cells don't provide direct power to the fence, all they do is keep the batteries charged so you don't have to plug it into the mains.

Originally Posted by selzer

Perhaps the Knowledgeable Lou

Wondering how you'd feel if I was to start calling you "the ignorant selzer?" Your rudeness and sarcasm are obvious and you always go this way in these discussion because you're unable and/or unwilling to stay professional and polite. But it's exactly what I'd expect from someone who spends so much of their time in denial and hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by selzer

is not trying to convert

No "perhaps" about it. I've said as much quite clearly. AGAIN, I'm just pointing out your logical fallacies. There are lots of them.

Originally Posted by selzer

and not trying to annoy,

I pretty much don't care whether you're annoyed or not. As long as you live in a fairy land and try to influence others I'll point out where you're wrong.

Originally Posted by selzer

but I think he should stop suggesting that MY dogs are not trained, because MY dogs ARE trained

Please point out where I've said that your dogs are not trained. This is commonly known as a Strawman Argument. You attribute to your opponent, a position that he's NEVER taken and then condemn him for it. ANOTHER of your logical fallacies!

Originally Posted by selzer

and have been trained without the use of his nasty little gadgets.

Only a rude person with an agenda would call an Ecollar a "nasty little gadget."

[selzer]

You win Lou, I am a close-minded ignorant hypocrit who will not use an e-collar or suggest their use to anyone else.

[codmaster]

It appears to me that an e-collar, which I have never used personally but have seen used by a close friend to get a reliable recall on her headstrong male GSD, can be a very useful training tool when used properly.

if anyone decides not to use it, fine for them. If anyone chooses to use it, then they should learn from an expert experienced in it's use.

A tool is simply a tool!

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted by selzer

You win Lou, I am a close-minded ignorant hypocrit who will not use an e-collar or suggest their use to anyone else.

"Closed minded?" – Can you show us where you've changed your mind or learned anything new in this discussion.

"Ignorant?" – I asked a very simple question, "your dog is not obeying your command to recall and he's running towards a busy street. What do you do?" You pretended to answer but really did not. When I rephrased the question, you avoided it.

You made the claim that "dogs seem to be hypersensitive to electricity." When asked for support for that statement, you did not supply any.

You made the claim that someone had said that an Ecollar "is the only humane way to train." I asked for a link to such a statement (I don't believe that anyone has said this) and you did not supply it.

You want to dumb down any breed of dog that can't be trained with your methods. Ignoring the fact that it's your methods that are at fault, rather than the dog.

You think that the answer to some chasing issues is management and we all know that management will always break down, putting the dog at risk.

You think that there is pressure on you to "convert" to using an Ecollar.

You pretend (in spite of claiming to be an "electrical engineer") that because your charged fence uses solar power to keep its batteries charged that it somehow has less power than a charged fence that uses AC power to keep its batteries charged.

You think that because YOUR dogs are trained that no one else should use an Ecollar.

You compare a stun gun to a charged fence.

You claim that I've said that your dogs are not trained, but when challenged, can not provide ANY instance of me saying it.

"Hypocrite?" – You decry Ecollars but use a charged fence that is more than half–a–million–times more powerful.

I've not called you any of these names. I have said that you show these symptoms. But if the shoes fit …

[LouCastle]

Originally Posted by codmaster

A tool is simply a tool!

Waaaaay too much logic and reason here.

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Here's a video of a dog being trained with an Ecollar Anyone can see how badly the dog is being abused and how INHUMANE the training is.