Titled Parents?

BrianB · 11-05-2011, 03:04 PM

Hi Everyone - I have a few more questions.

I am looking for a GSD pup or older pup as a pet. Not sure yet if I am going to go working or west show lines. I found a west show line breeder I really like here in Illinois.

For working lines should I just walk away if the parents are not titled? Isnt the whole point of shutzhund to ensure sound nerves and temperament before breeding? So arent people breeding non titled dogs technically not dueing their due diligence before breeding?

Alot of breeders say they sent dog to Europe to be titled. What does that mean? Dont the breeders title their own dogs?

Sorry for the questions but I am finding the whole process of trying to find a reputable breeder mind numbing!!!!

Thanks,

Brian

As a side I had a working line GSD for 10 years but I think my breeder has resorted to becoming a BYB so wont go back there.

wolfstraum · 11-05-2011, 03:11 PM

many breeders - esp show line breeders - send dogs overseas where titles are slammed on the dog quickly, esp females, and the female comes back bred to a big name male and the litter pays for the title....

most working line breeders on this board train and title their own dogs, buy an occassional female already titled or a youngster to add to their programs....

while I thoroughly believe in working my females - with my club 200+ miles away, I will work them, but not wait until they are 6 years old to breed one ever again...younger females need to be bred and will keep working on titles...

Lee

Shaina · 11-05-2011, 03:25 PM

I agree, Wolfstraum. I bought my puppy from a titled male and an untitled female, but I saw videos of the female working and really trusted my breeder that he knew she was breed worthy. Not all breeders are honest, though, so I could see why titles are the "say all" for some buyers. Not all breed worthy dogs are titled, and not all titled dogs are breed worthy.....

bocron · 11-05-2011, 05:06 PM

There are working line breeders that will send dogs to Europe to be titled. If they themselves live in a remote area, it could be a full time job to travel to training and then to trials regularly enough to get the dog titles. Whereas in Europe, Germany in particular, finding a club and trials is like finding a CVS drugstore (ok, I'm exaggerating a bit). One of the guys we had over here a few years back told us that he walks to his club every evening after work and passes another club on the way! Getting a dog koerklassed is also less daunting in Europe, he said there were 3-4 koermeisters in his club alone!
Personally I want a dog from titled parents, but I could be considered a snob, or maybe it's just time and experience. I like to hedge my bets and think I have a better chance of knowing what I may end up with if I get a pup from titled and KkL parents.

Annette

4TheDawgies · 11-05-2011, 05:23 PM

all very good points by everyone.

The most important thing to do is know what you want, and learn how to find it in a dog. Even if a dog has all of the titles and the kkl1, that dog may not be the type of dog you want to train. There are different lines, with different attributes that can make a dog harder or easier for an individual to train.
Once you find that out, you look for those traits in the dogs you want.

Just because a working line, or a showline dog does not have titles does not mean the dog is not capable of such. Sure you could go with a breeder who is breeding dogs with those things already, but sometimes things like time constraints, contracts, driving time or cost of shipping, can also be a large influence in how realistic it is to get a dog from somewhere.

so if you find a dog from a line you like, who isn't titled but is working towards them, and the other parent does have titles and is what you want, don't let the lack of title stop you.
Watch the parent without the title work, ask about the dog, meet the dog, learn everything you can. If the dog has all of the capabilities but its simply inexperience in training that they are currently working on, then go for it.

As for sending dogs overseas or even off somewhere in their country for training. Keep in mind not everyone is blessed with a close training club. So sometimes they will put the foundation work on their dogs then send them off to finish off what they couldn't teach and earn the title and get them back.
Now sometimes the sending off to training is their only way of earning a title because the dog doesn't have the capabilities but someone is too kennel blind to wash it from their program so they paper title it.

so its very important to watch the sire and dam of a litter you are considering work, and meet them to learn their temperament. If at all possible meet the dogs on a ground they are not used to. a park or something of the sort. Dogs can show a lot of confidence on their home territory and when taken out show their true colors.

**Samba** · 11-05-2011, 06:07 PM

Well, there are untitled dogs that I would take a puppy from and titled ones that I wouldn't. I care mostly about who is doing the breeding and what are their skills in assessing working strength and weaknesses, their knowledge of the bloodlines, their previous experience with breeding them and their history of production.

BlackGSD · 11-05-2011, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samba

Well, there are untitled dogs that I would take a puppy from and titled ones that I wouldn't. I care mostly about who is doing the breeding and what are their skills in assessing working strength and weaknesses, their knowledge of the bloodlines, their previous experience with breeding them and their history of production.

BrianB · 11-05-2011, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samba

Well, there are untitled dogs that I would take a puppy from and titled ones that I wouldn't. I care mostly about who is doing the breeding and what are their skills in assessing working strength and weaknesses, their knowledge of the bloodlines, their previous experience with breeding them and their history of production.

Hi Everyone - Thanks for the responses. You say you care mostly who is doing the breeding and if you are an experienced GSD person and "in the know" or part of the circuit you can make informed decisions but what about us that are not in the know? How can we make an informed decision? I have read the buying a puppy threads and how to pick out a good breeder and if I follow the criteria none of the breeders I have dealt with or spoken to are "responsible".

doggiedad · 11-05-2011, 10:27 PM

the more you learn the more numb you'll become.

i say make it easy on
yourself. find a reputable breeder with titled dogs. i think you get a
little insurance on your pup if the parents are titled. decide on what you want,
a show line or a working line and let me name your pup.
good luck with the new pup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianB

Sorry for the questions but I am finding the whole process of trying to find a reputable breeder mind numbing!!!!

BrianB · 11-06-2011, 12:19 AM

Can someone provide me a breeder in Illinois, southern Wisconsin, Northern IN that meets the following cirteria for a responsible breeder:

RESPONSIBLE OR BYB ?

I would like to be able to drive and visit the breeder and puppies before I commit and I dont want to have to fly somewhere to do this. If there isnt a responsible breeder within 5 hours of Chicago I dont think one exists.....

Thanks for the help!

Brian

11-05-2011, 03:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
BrianB Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Chicago Posts: 34	Titled Parents? Hi Everyone - I have a few more questions. I am looking for a GSD pup or older pup as a pet. Not sure yet if I am going to go working or west show lines. I found a west show line breeder I really like here in Illinois. For working lines should I just walk away if the parents are not titled? Isnt the whole point of shutzhund to ensure sound nerves and temperament before breeding? So arent people breeding non titled dogs technically not dueing their due diligence before breeding? Alot of breeders say they sent dog to Europe to be titled. What does that mean? Dont the breeders title their own dogs? Sorry for the questions but I am finding the whole process of trying to find a reputable breeder mind numbing!!!! Thanks, Brian As a side I had a working line GSD for 10 years but I think my breeder has resorted to becoming a BYB so wont go back there.

11-05-2011, 03:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
wolfstraum Crowned Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: PA Posts: 7,088	many breeders - esp show line breeders - send dogs overseas where titles are slammed on the dog quickly, esp females, and the female comes back bred to a big name male and the litter pays for the title.... most working line breeders on this board train and title their own dogs, buy an occassional female already titled or a youngster to add to their programs.... while I thoroughly believe in working my females - with my club 200+ miles away, I will work them, but not wait until they are 6 years old to breed one ever again...younger females need to be bred and will keep working on titles... Lee __________________ Csabre Sch1, Hexe Sch2, Bengal, Kyra, Kira & Kougar v Wolfstraum ~ Basha Sch3, Ghost Sch3 - Danger Sch1 SAR - ATB/Ret - Kyra, Sch3, Alice Sch1, Kelsey, Fenja Sch3 wolfstraum.net

11-05-2011, 03:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
Shaina Master Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 752	I agree, Wolfstraum. I bought my puppy from a titled male and an untitled female, but I saw videos of the female working and really trusted my breeder that he knew she was breed worthy. Not all breeders are honest, though, so I could see why titles are the "say all" for some buyers. Not all breed worthy dogs are titled, and not all titled dogs are breed worthy..... __________________ "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland

11-05-2011, 05:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
bocron Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Milton, Georgia Posts: 1,458	There are working line breeders that will send dogs to Europe to be titled. If they themselves live in a remote area, it could be a full time job to travel to training and then to trials regularly enough to get the dog titles. Whereas in Europe, Germany in particular, finding a club and trials is like finding a CVS drugstore (ok, I'm exaggerating a bit). One of the guys we had over here a few years back told us that he walks to his club every evening after work and passes another club on the way! Getting a dog koerklassed is also less daunting in Europe, he said there were 3-4 koermeisters in his club alone! Personally I want a dog from titled parents, but I could be considered a snob, or maybe it's just time and experience. I like to hedge my bets and think I have a better chance of knowing what I may end up with if I get a pup from titled and KkL parents. Annette __________________ Annette Holbrook www.coppercreekdvg.com- All Breed Schutzhund Club Home of Umarek von Hugelblick, my good luck charm!

11-05-2011, 05:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
4TheDawgies Master Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: KS Posts: 746	all very good points by everyone. The most important thing to do is know what you want, and learn how to find it in a dog. Even if a dog has all of the titles and the kkl1, that dog may not be the type of dog you want to train. There are different lines, with different attributes that can make a dog harder or easier for an individual to train. Once you find that out, you look for those traits in the dogs you want. Just because a working line, or a showline dog does not have titles does not mean the dog is not capable of such. Sure you could go with a breeder who is breeding dogs with those things already, but sometimes things like time constraints, contracts, driving time or cost of shipping, can also be a large influence in how realistic it is to get a dog from somewhere. so if you find a dog from a line you like, who isn't titled but is working towards them, and the other parent does have titles and is what you want, don't let the lack of title stop you. Watch the parent without the title work, ask about the dog, meet the dog, learn everything you can. If the dog has all of the capabilities but its simply inexperience in training that they are currently working on, then go for it. As for sending dogs overseas or even off somewhere in their country for training. Keep in mind not everyone is blessed with a close training club. So sometimes they will put the foundation work on their dogs then send them off to finish off what they couldn't teach and earn the title and get them back. Now sometimes the sending off to training is their only way of earning a title because the dog doesn't have the capabilities but someone is too kennel blind to wash it from their program so they paper title it. so its very important to watch the sire and dam of a litter you are considering work, and meet them to learn their temperament. If at all possible meet the dogs on a ground they are not used to. a park or something of the sort. Dogs can show a lot of confidence on their home territory and when taken out show their true colors. __________________ "For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear."

11-05-2011, 06:07 PM	#6 (permalink)
Samba Administrator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: USA Posts: 6,447	Well, there are untitled dogs that I would take a puppy from and titled ones that I wouldn't. I care mostly about who is doing the breeding and what are their skills in assessing working strength and weaknesses, their knowledge of the bloodlines, their previous experience with breeding them and their history of production.

11-06-2011, 12:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
BrianB Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Chicago Posts: 34	Can someone provide me a breeder in Illinois, southern Wisconsin, Northern IN that meets the following cirteria for a responsible breeder: RESPONSIBLE OR BYB ? I would like to be able to drive and visit the breeder and puppies before I commit and I dont want to have to fly somewhere to do this. If there isnt a responsible breeder within 5 hours of Chicago I dont think one exists..... Thanks for the help! Brian

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