Age and size

melissa246 · 09-01-2011, 11:27 PM

I've recently spoken to a breeder who suggested a couple of puppies/young dogs for me that fits what I wanted and everything. One of the "puppies" she suggested is 12 weeks old and counting, the other younger dog she suggested is going on 4 months.

Suppose both dogs are equally talented, have similar play/food drive, willingness to please and temperament:

1. Should I be concerned about the age... the young dog is going on four months :s
I mean, when you get a young puppy, you have a clean slate to work on and I suppose you can train the pup to be what you want, with the older ones or young dogs... would it be easy for me to "re-train" or "train-out" some of their habits.
How hard would it be for me to train them in another language?
The age was one of my main concerns when she suggested those puppies, can you give some insight?
2. According to her, the young dog that is about to be 4 months old will likely be "90 lbs or more" .The 12 week old puppy will be around 80lbs. When it come to protection ... does size matter? I know that for intimidation, the bigger dog would be more effective. She says both dogs are equally protective.
3. Health issues, assuming the young dog will be 90lbs or more ... he's going to be pretty big, he will be trained for Schutzhund and will be exercised every single day for extensive hours... which of the 2 would.. uhm, last longer? (i worded that wrong, but i hope you get what i mean, im assuming the lighter one ? since it's less of a strain for him? )

elisabeth_00117 · 09-01-2011, 11:34 PM

I recently brought home a "older" puppy specifically for schutzhund.

Zefra was about 13 weeks old when she came home, the litter had a few females held back to assess for temperament and working ability and for future breeding potential.

Zefra will be about 65-70lbs when fully mature, on the larger end for a female, but hopefully (and we think she will) be within standard.

As for which one will "last longer" I am assuming you mean in terms of their physical ability? Structure (how they are put together - not so much size) plays a role, diet, overall health and temperament, etc... really, there is no telling at this age.. at least I don't think so.

I will say that bringing a older pup home was awesome. She was already crate and potty trained, she had some basic manners already and we kind of already knew her personality a bit (crazy, wild child!).

I would definitely do it again given the choice.

melissa246 · 09-01-2011, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elisabeth_00117

As for which one will "last longer" I am assuming you mean in terms of their physical ability? Structure (how they are put together - not so much size) plays a role, diet, overall health and temperament, etc... really, there is no telling at this age.. at least I don't think so.

I will say that bringing a older pup home was awesome. She was already crate and potty trained, she had some basic manners already and we kind of already knew her personality a bit (crazy, wild child!).

I would definitely do it again given the choice.

Yup that's exactly what I meant, Physical Ability.
Well, if the younger dog will be more than 90lbs .... is that not.. too much? Would they not get more exhausted than the lighter one? However he does have "heavier bone, bigger chest, bigger head" than the younger one.

I want to add one more question to my original one.... why do breeders still have younger dogs for sale? Did they expect him to be more overall talented and he turned out to be not what they expected? Did they have intentions on keeping him for breeding but now they changed their minds? If so then what went wrong? Is it because nobody wants that particular puppy? etc etc
(She had 7 puppies from that litter, 2 remained)

The younger dog

The 12 week old puppy

**lhczth** · 09-02-2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa246

1. Should I be concerned about the age... the young dog is going on four months :s
I mean, when you get a young puppy, you have a clean slate to work on and I suppose you can train the pup to be what you want, with the older ones or young dogs... would it be easy for me to "re-train" or "train-out" some of their habits.
How hard would it be for me to train them in another language?
The age was one of my main concerns when she suggested those puppies, can you give some insight?

It depends a lot on what the breeder has done with the puppy. Has the pup sat in a kennel and done nothing? Have they been out training, being imprinted in obedience and tracking? Taken out and exposed to the world? If so, does the breeder train the way you want?

The biggest problem I have had with older puppies is ones that were raised in a kennel have been much much harder to house break and keep clean in a crate. I have not found them difficult to teach and train otherwise if they have the right genetics in the first place.

Quote:

2. According to her, the young dog that is about to be 4 months old will likely be "90 lbs or more" .The 12 week old puppy will be around 80lbs. When it come to protection ... does size matter? I know that for intimidation, the bigger dog would be more effective. She says both dogs are equally protective.

We are talking about puppies. Neither should be protective as of yet. Either this is not what you meant to convey or the breeder is full of nonsense.

Quote:

3. Health issues, assuming the young dog will be 90lbs or more ... he's going to be pretty big, he will be trained for Schutzhund and will be exercised every single day for extensive hours... which of the 2 would.. uhm, last longer? (i worded that wrong, but i hope you get what i mean, im assuming the lighter one ? since it's less of a strain for him? )

Depends a lot on structure and genetics, but, for the most part, larger dogs don't seem to last as long. I have a 90# male, but he is very athletic so I hope he last many years. I, personally, would not make this my reason for choosing or not choosing a puppy.

LaRen616 · 09-02-2011, 08:21 AM

I brought home my male when he was 11 weeks old, it was perfect, he had a better attention span and a bigger bladder than an 8 week old puppy. He was completely potty trained before he turned 13 weeks old.

I am going to be fostering a pup for the next 6 months, I pick her up today and she is 11 weeks old.

Next year when I get my puppy I already worked it out with the breeder that he will keep the puppy until she is 12 weeks old.

I like older pups better, I dont want to bring home an 8 week old puppy.

**lhczth** · 09-02-2011, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa246

I want to add one more question to my original one.... why do breeders still have younger dogs for sale? Did they expect him to be more overall talented and he turned out to be not what they expected? Did they have intentions on keeping him for breeding but now they changed their minds? If so then what went wrong? Is it because nobody wants that particular puppy? etc etc
(She had 7 puppies from that litter, 2 remained)

There can be many reasons why a breeder has puppies left. My D litter I had a bunch of people that wanted females. I had 5 males and only two females so I had some extra boys for awhile. Or maybe it was a larger litter and the breeder had only so many reservations. Maybe the breeder kept back a couple to watch them grow out a bit before placing them (when I do this I usually keep them through prelims). Maybe the pup showed a lot of promise for work and they didn't have the right homes lined up. Hard to really know. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the pups especially in this economy. IF the puppy is what you want than don't worry about why he is still at the breeders.

LaRen616 · 09-02-2011, 08:27 AM

IMO

If both pups had the temperment that I wanted and both would be a good match for me, I would choose the 12 week old puppy.

There is a 4 week difference in age between the 2 pups, I like to start training and socialization right away and I would want to start that at a younger age.

carmspack · 09-02-2011, 09:51 AM

some breeders breed for working and need a longer time to evaluate the pups , or hold on to them longer to allow them to mature before first vaccinations, or need to ship them and have to wait out flight embargos due to temperature .
Pups aren't commodities with a cuteness best before date , although some places I've encountered act as if they were. Get them out asap . Vaccinate at 6 out by 7weeks. Why would your breeder say one of them is "12 weeks old and counting"?

Are both equal in talent. Ask your questions around the temperament , sociabiltiy , etc. not weight projections . If you are in Vancouver area (?) chances are that the schutzhund clubs will be Lance Collins or Doug Deacon -- go and visit the training club and see what kind of dog you should be bringing to those clubs .

All this weight 80 pounds this 90 pounds that has little to do with character or ability . Not important unless you were paying by the pound . You can make either one of the 120 pounds if you wanted to.

Are the two dogs related ? Same sire - different dams or some such.

Good luck.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

carmspack · 09-02-2011, 09:51 AM

one other point -- pups are not really clean slates

Draugr · 09-02-2011, 01:17 PM

Anything above 50 or 60 lbs starts to be a pretty intimidating threat to would-be ill-doers. I mean yes, you could get a like a Caucasian mountain dog and have a freakin' half-dog, half-bear, and while that's *technically* more intimidating than a large GSD...no crook is going to mess with either one of them, and if he does, he's going to learn a very quick lesson.

What they weigh now might also not be indicative in any way of what they will end up being. The lighter one might grow up to weigh more than the heavier one at full adult weight. Who knows. Puppy growth spurts are unpredictable, just like people growth spurts. I barely recognized one of my best friends when I met him a few years after I graduated high school because he'd grown about six or seven inches.

What carmspack said is also very true - puppies are not *really* blank slates. Think of all the adult dogs people adopt from shelters who live wonderful happy lives with their owners. Dogs that have probably not come from the best of backgrounds. I wouldn't worry about any kind of "imprinting" that has already been done on them.

If you trust that breeder and she does a lot of socialization, flip a coin. If she doesn't socialize well, or doesn't socialize well enough for your standards, choose the younger one. The younger they are the more critical socialization is. I am dealing with issues in my dog now - he's overcoming them by leaps and bounds, but they are still there - because I did not hit up socialization hard enough. Also because I let him be a spoiled brat =/. Hehe. But he is a very fast learner.

09-01-2011, 11:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
melissa246 New Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 22	Age and size I've recently spoken to a breeder who suggested a couple of puppies/young dogs for me that fits what I wanted and everything. One of the "puppies" she suggested is 12 weeks old and counting, the other younger dog she suggested is going on 4 months. Suppose both dogs are equally talented, have similar play/food drive, willingness to please and temperament: 1. Should I be concerned about the age... the young dog is going on four months :s I mean, when you get a young puppy, you have a clean slate to work on and I suppose you can train the pup to be what you want, with the older ones or young dogs... would it be easy for me to "re-train" or "train-out" some of their habits. How hard would it be for me to train them in another language? The age was one of my main concerns when she suggested those puppies, can you give some insight? 2. According to her, the young dog that is about to be 4 months old will likely be "90 lbs or more" .The 12 week old puppy will be around 80lbs. When it come to protection ... does size matter? I know that for intimidation, the bigger dog would be more effective. She says both dogs are equally protective. 3. Health issues, assuming the young dog will be 90lbs or more ... he's going to be pretty big, he will be trained for Schutzhund and will be exercised every single day for extensive hours... which of the 2 would.. uhm, last longer? (i worded that wrong, but i hope you get what i mean, im assuming the lighter one ? since it's less of a strain for him? )

09-01-2011, 11:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
elisabeth_00117 Crowned Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Waterloo, Ontario Posts: 7,250	I recently brought home a "older" puppy specifically for schutzhund. Zefra was about 13 weeks old when she came home, the litter had a few females held back to assess for temperament and working ability and for future breeding potential. Zefra will be about 65-70lbs when fully mature, on the larger end for a female, but hopefully (and we think she will) be within standard. As for which one will "last longer" I am assuming you mean in terms of their physical ability? Structure (how they are put together - not so much size) plays a role, diet, overall health and temperament, etc... really, there is no telling at this age.. at least I don't think so. I will say that bringing a older pup home was awesome. She was already crate and potty trained, she had some basic manners already and we kind of already knew her personality a bit (crazy, wild child!). I would definitely do it again given the choice. __________________ Battleborn Hundesport Wild Winds Archangel Raphael "Stark", HIC (2009-04-10) Wild Winds Zephyr "Zefra" (2011-04-15) *Beau* 03/08/97 to 06/07/10

09-02-2011, 08:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
LaRen616 Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 10,582	I brought home my male when he was 11 weeks old, it was perfect, he had a better attention span and a bigger bladder than an 8 week old puppy. He was completely potty trained before he turned 13 weeks old. I am going to be fostering a pup for the next 6 months, I pick her up today and she is 11 weeks old. Next year when I get my puppy I already worked it out with the breeder that he will keep the puppy until she is 12 weeks old. I like older pups better, I dont want to bring home an 8 week old puppy. __________________ ~ Sinister 3 yr old black male GSD 3.11.09 ~ Malice 9 mth old black female GSD 6.19.11 Cats: Chaos, Monster, Wicked

09-02-2011, 08:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
LaRen616 Crowned Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 10,582	IMO If both pups had the temperment that I wanted and both would be a good match for me, I would choose the 12 week old puppy. There is a 4 week difference in age between the 2 pups, I like to start training and socialization right away and I would want to start that at a younger age. __________________ ~ Sinister 3 yr old black male GSD 3.11.09 ~ Malice 9 mth old black female GSD 6.19.11 Cats: Chaos, Monster, Wicked

09-02-2011, 09:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
carmspack Knighted Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 3,324	some breeders breed for working and need a longer time to evaluate the pups , or hold on to them longer to allow them to mature before first vaccinations, or need to ship them and have to wait out flight embargos due to temperature . Pups aren't commodities with a cuteness best before date , although some places I've encountered act as if they were. Get them out asap . Vaccinate at 6 out by 7weeks. Why would your breeder say one of them is "12 weeks old and counting"? Are both equal in talent. Ask your questions around the temperament , sociabiltiy , etc. not weight projections . If you are in Vancouver area (?) chances are that the schutzhund clubs will be Lance Collins or Doug Deacon -- go and visit the training club and see what kind of dog you should be bringing to those clubs . All this weight 80 pounds this 90 pounds that has little to do with character or ability . Not important unless you were paying by the pound . You can make either one of the 120 pounds if you wanted to. Are the two dogs related ? Same sire - different dams or some such. Good luck. Carmen Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

09-02-2011, 09:51 AM	#9 (permalink)
carmspack Knighted Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 3,324	one other point -- pups are not really clean slates

09-02-2011, 01:17 PM	#10 (permalink)
Draugr Master Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 677	Anything above 50 or 60 lbs starts to be a pretty intimidating threat to would-be ill-doers. I mean yes, you could get a like a Caucasian mountain dog and have a freakin' half-dog, half-bear, and while that's technically more intimidating than a large GSD...no crook is going to mess with either one of them, and if he does, he's going to learn a very quick lesson. What they weigh now might also not be indicative in any way of what they will end up being. The lighter one might grow up to weigh more than the heavier one at full adult weight. Who knows. Puppy growth spurts are unpredictable, just like people growth spurts. I barely recognized one of my best friends when I met him a few years after I graduated high school because he'd grown about six or seven inches. What carmspack said is also very true - puppies are not really blank slates. Think of all the adult dogs people adopt from shelters who live wonderful happy lives with their owners. Dogs that have probably not come from the best of backgrounds. I wouldn't worry about any kind of "imprinting" that has already been done on them. If you trust that breeder and she does a lot of socialization, flip a coin. If she doesn't socialize well, or doesn't socialize well enough for your standards, choose the younger one. The younger they are the more critical socialization is. I am dealing with issues in my dog now - he's overcoming them by leaps and bounds, but they are still there - because I did not hit up socialization hard enough. Also because I let him be a spoiled brat =/. Hehe. But he is a very fast learner.

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