Independent vs. pack-oriented pup

[TechieDog]

I would like to get peoples thoughts as to how much independence is good/bad when choosing a working puppy (for sport or PPD)? Do you prefer a more pack-oriented pup or more independent pup (assuming similar confidence) and why?

[JKlatsky]

Personally I prefer a more pack oriented dog. They tend to make more compliant obedience dogs. But after having a SA dog- I also don't love a super clingy dog either. So somewhere in the middle. I like a pup that is easily attracted to people but will also go find his own thing to do if you ignore him.

[TechieDog]

Does the independent pup tend to become more "serious" as an adult?

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by TechieDog

Does the independent pup tend to become more "serious" as an adult?

In my experience with 2 dogs, yes. My male was highly independent as a pup, and is all business as an adult. He also doesn't really play with other dogs

[Hillary_Plog]

I have a 4 month old, Dos Equis, that I will be using as a working dog in numerous venues. I watched this litter mature from week 1 with Robin and Carlos Huerta because it was very important that I find the right temperament for my needs (this dog will be the epitome of utilitarian).

I chose the most independent puppy.

Here are my reasons:

* We have German Shepherds. Whether they are the most independent or the neediest of dogs, they WILL bond with and want to work for their handler, whether we like it or not. My pup LOVES to work for/with me.

* I have found that independent dogs have a "take on the world" aspect to their temperament. I want my dog to be able to "think" for himself and go "gung-ho" into any situation without having to rely on me to "make it okay".

Here is my disclaimer: This isn't a blanket statement and isn't necessarily true for every "independent" dog. Also, I am an experienced handler/trainer and know how to counter the downsides to an independent dog...and there are a few (especially when they are young).

I agree with JKlatsky, a "happy medium" will be most people's ideal as far as having a trainable dog.

[hunterisgreat]

Originally Posted by Hillary_Plog

I have a 4 month old, Dos Equis, that I will be using as a working dog in numerous venues. I watched this litter mature from week 1 with Robin and Carlos Huerta because it was very important that I find the right temperament for my needs (this dog will be the epitome of utilitarian).

I chose the most independent puppy.

Here are my reasons:

* We have German Shepherds. Whether they are the most independent or the neediest of dogs, they WILL bond with and want to work for their handler, whether we like it or not. My pup LOVES to work for/with me.

* I have found that independent dogs have a "take on the world" aspect to their temperament. I want my dog to be able to "think" for himself and go "gung-ho" into any situation without having to rely on me to "make it okay".

Here is my disclaimer: This isn't a blanket statement and isn't necessarily true for every "independent" dog. Also, I am an experienced handler/trainer and know how to counter the downsides to an independent dog...and there are a few (especially when they are young).

I agree with JKlatsky, a "happy medium" will be most people's ideal as far as having a trainable dog.

I can second that my highly independent pup is much more of a methodical thinker than my female. She certainly isn't stupid, but she leans more on me for approval and guidance. Everything my male does is deliberate and not accidental

[Ace952]

Originally Posted by TechieDog

Does the independent pup tend to become more "serious" as an adult?

I say there are too many factors that play into this to say for sure. I think you can get an equal amount of examples for yes & no.

[Ace952]

Originally Posted by Hillary_Plog

* We have German Shepherds. Whether they are the most independent or the neediest of dogs, they WILL bond with and want to work for their handler, whether we like it or not. My pup LOVES to work for/with me.

* I have found that independent dogs have a "take on the world" aspect to their temperament. I want my dog to be able to "think" for himself and go "gung-ho" into any situation without having to rely on me to "make it okay".

I think on your first point that can be true but it all depends on the dog, breeding and other factors. I lean a little more in the opposite direction. IMO the more independent rhey are, the less they are willing to work for the handler but rather they work to please themselves.

If they are independent they do things that please them and not really to please the handler. This can be a pain when it comes to training. It is a lot easier to work with a train a dog that works to please you. When you have a independent dog that works to please itself, he works on his schedule and you gotta have what he feels he wants as a reward and when he's done...he's done...lol Again its all about what personality you prefer.

I think what you want more than anything is confidence. Yes you want drive and all that stuff but confidence is the main factor. That will separate it from the others.

For sport and especially PP, you want confidence. Be careful if you get a super confident & independent dog....as they may challenge you from time to time.

[Hillary_Plog]

Originally Posted by Ace952

I think on your first point that can be true but it all depends on the dog, breeding and other factors. I lean a little more in the opposite direction. IMO the more independent rhey are, the less they are willing to work for the handler but rather they work to please themselves.

If they are independent they do things that please them and not really to please the handler. This can be a pain when it comes to training. It is a lot easier to work with a train a dog that works to please you. When you have a independent dog that works to please itself, he works on his schedule and you gotta have what he feels he wants as a reward and when he's done...he's done...lol Again its all about what personality you prefer.

I think what you want more than anything is confidence. Yes you want drive and all that stuff but confidence is the main factor. That will separate it from the others.

For sport and especially PP, you want confidence. Be careful if you get a super confident & independent dog....as they may challenge you from time to time.

Of course it depends on other factors, which is why I wrote my disclaimer saying that it isn't a blanket statement, and isn't the case with every dog.

I do have to say though, that if you have an "independent" GSD they may challenge you, but they are still working for "you"...as that is what they are designed by genetics to do. An independent GSD looks very different from an independent English Bulldog or Bull Terrier, who truly do have their own agenda and are a "true" independent dog/breed.

[Ace952]

I know you put the disclaimer out there, just giving my view on it.

Ahhh...good ol genetics. Right there is the wild card and depends on the genetic makeup of the dog and the dogs in the pedigree. So important to know. I personally dont every GSD who is independent will work for you. He will work for you IF you have something he wants as the reward. This is opposed to the dog that works to make you happy as he/she only wants a "good boy/girl" and pat on the head. I feel for the independent dog, that high pitch voice of happiness & pat on the head isn't enough as that isn't what they want.