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Searching for right breeder in Central New Jersey

10K views 58 replies 22 participants last post by  huntergreen 
#1 ·
Happy Holidays!

I will be a first time GSD owner and looking for the right breeder in Central New Jersey area. I thought you all here could help guide me to a good breeder in the area (or should I import one or ship one in from another state, seems wierd to me) and also to critique a breeder as a way to educate myself on different things I have little knowledge on thus far (i.e. line breeding, pedigree details, etc).

First and foremost, I am looking for a companion dog to join my pack, wife, two children (4 years and 2 years), and our house cat. I'm also very interested in pursuing Schutzhund with the GSD, but not on a competitive basis (more of a way for the dog and I to learn about the sport together, to bond together, and to enhance his training with professionals). I'm also looking to purchase the pup no earlier then a spring 2008 litter. My budget is up to $2,500. I don't care so far (since I have little knowledge of) which line the dog comes from as long as it's German and not American, healthy (parents OFA normal/good), correct temperment, genetics are stacked my way for a good long term healthy dog.

After the holidays in Jan, I'll be visiting several kennels in the area. I will also start going to the local club events to meet other GSD lovers and really see what the breed, training, and show/sports are about. I'm compiling an entire list of questions for the breeder and preparing myself and my home for the pup (references, financial / time budgetting, fixing the 16x9 kennel i have on my property, etc).

I would appreciate any help you might have in locating the right breeder for me that you think breeds the kind of pup I am looking for, advice/guidance on the type of lines I should look at, and any feedback on the below breeder and dogs.

After doing some research about the local clubs, I found a breeder who is the president of two clubs (one with USA and the other with GSDCA-WDA). The web site for his breeding program is at: Jagermeister Shepherds .

He has a litter planned with the below dogs in 2008. When I do a Mate! check on the pedigrees, there are several linebreedings coming up that I am worried about. The dam also worries me with the linebreeding, but I have no experience to undestand if this is a red flag or not.

Sire: Branco vom Banholz; SchH3, IPO3, FH, KKL2 - Pedigree

Dam: Beau van 't Leefdaalhof ; SchH1 - Pedigree

As somewhat of a case study, what do you think of the above dogs, what kind of litter they might produce, and the kennel in general from the web site I linked.

I understand there are a lot of other important factors to consider with this kennel, and I will gather that information when I visit, but I'm wondering if I'm wasting my time if the dogs he has and plans to breed are just not correct or desirable.

Thank you for any help you can offer and have a great holiday!
 
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#27 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Thanks Chris - I don't need to write all that out myself now! Ironically, this dog got spayed, so the breeding rights of the owner are a moot point! I have offered to hold papers until a spay is done instead. I have also sold a pup to someone who had been very ill, and heard some grumbling about why I would do that - yes, that was a bit of a problem ethically for me, but the owner and I and a mutual friend all discussed "what if" and there is a agreement if it ever it would come down to anything needing to be done. The owner is thrilled with the dog, it is giving her a reason to get up and go on with day to day living - and God forbid anything ever happening, the dog's future is provided for in either of two ways, both acceptable to me. I feel that I did a good thing for the person, and the dog too!!, in letting that pup go where it went. Limited ?? so what, I don't think the pup has even been transferred out of my name yet!

Lee
 
#28 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Both Chris Wild and Wolfstraum are strictly looking at this from a breeders point of view not a consumers point of view.

Back in the day when a quality GSD puppy would cost you $300.00 to $500.00 that was one thing but now day's with the cost of a quality GSD pup going anywhere from $1000.00 to the $5000.00 range the consumer can not be any too careful in who they are dealing with.
This now has become a major investment. A breeder has every right to charge whatever they want for their puppies. A consumer can always pass.

But the consumer has very few rights sure we get a contract prepared by the breeder who holds all the cards.
You have to dance to the tune of the breeder and if their is a problem you are left to the whim of the breeder.
You can't even talk negative about a breeder on this forum no matter how true it is.
Sue a breeder yea right especially if they are out of state. Not going to happen.

Look on this forum everyday you see problems with breeders and who is left holding the bag in most cases the consumer.

No wonder it has taken some people on this forum years to find a breeder they can work with and trust.
The consumers problem is the more educated you are the more cautious you become.
 
#29 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Quote: But the consumer has very few rights sure we get a contract prepared by the breeder who holds all the cards.
I don't feel that way at all.. I feel I have all kinds of rights when it comes to my dog.. and yes they were purchased on a limited registration..

If anything the breeder I purchased my dogs from has been nothing but supportive to me.. even on the dumb decision's I might have made..

Even though my dogs are on a limited registration now, I can still compete with them.. It doesn't stop me from having fun with them!

I guess it's all in how you look at it!
 
#30 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

ahhh -Just putting the puppy owner in the role of a "consumer" is an indication of the philosophical differences - my pups are not "consumer goods" to be randomly or whimisically disposed of...they are living creatures and deserve to be owned by people who recognize that when you buy a pup from a concientiously idealistic breeder they are buying more than a warm body/livestock/property item.

Luckily for the consumers, maybe not so much for the pups, there are plenty of people who take the money and give you a pup and it is a done deal - consume away. If a consumer wants open papers, it is not all that hard to find a breeder who will give them to him.

Lee
 
#31 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Originally Posted By: larrydee33 but now day's with the cost of a quality GSD pup going anywhere from $1000.00 to the $5000.00 range the consumer can not be any too careful in who they are dealing with.
This now has become a major investment.
But what about the breeder's investment in the pups?
Not just money, but hours and hours and hours of researching lines, training and titling, years of experience and knowledge need to be taken into account also. You can't put a pricetag on integrity.

larrydee, I'm sure that you and your daughter are very knowledgeable and responsible owners who make a life-time commitments to any dog they may adopt, but sadly, that is not true for everyone, and I think the breeder has the right to make sure that their dogs are not going to end up in the hands of a BYB as a puppy factory for someone else to make money on. Not only a right, but I'd also go as far as they have a personal responsibility in ensuring that any dog they are responsible for having been brought into this world isn't used in that way, churning out cute puppy after puppy, most of whom will end up in a shelter down the road. This holds true also to the pet-owner who might just want to breed "one or two litters, for fun", which is just as bad. Still a BYB in my book.

A few years ago, I would not have understood much of this. Why spend $$$$$$$ on a puppy when I can get one out of the newspaper for 200$? I would have thought that all this titling business was elitist nonsense. I would have felt as you did, regarding limited registration, that the breeder was a control freak.

However, after knowing more about these issues, I see things from a very different point-of view. I can see that the breeder will have invested tons more in time, effort, money, caring and personal integrity into each and every dog than whatever sum they sell them for.

I can see how common the idea that breeding a dog for money, or for other reasons is. This is not something to be taken lightly, considering the number of poorly bred dogs out there, not to mention the well-bred dogs and tons of mixes dying in shelters everyday.

I can see how a breeder, who is proud of their lines, proud of the end result of their work and effort and dedication, will want to avoid someone undoing all their hard work by breeding a dog from their lines willy-nilly, left and right, with no regards to health issues.

So if you feel that the breeders out there are a bit too controling, it is because they have to be to ensure the well-being and safety of their dogs. A good breeder is willing to take on responsibility for the life-time of the puppy they have bred. Owners like yourself and your daughters are the minority. It is quite shocking how easily people will discard a dog when no longer convenient. And life being what it is, inconveniences pop up all the time, so most dogs don't have much of a chance at a long and healthy and STABLE and secure life.

The more I read about what goes into good breeding, responsible ownership, and the plight of MILLIONS of dogs out there who have not been so lucky, the more I support breeders like Lee and Chris.

And if it takes years for people to find a good breeder they can trust, that is because they are so few and far between. And the owners of dogs of breeders on this forum are never left holding the bag. When new people come on here with breeder problems, invariably, they are more likely a BYB type operation that no one has ever heard of.

But I'm just voicing my opinion, as others have. I'm not criticizing, we all have different stands on different issues. Varied opinions and different point of views make forums and discussions interesting, educating and eye-opening. I for one am glad that discussions such as this one start and evolve, because in the past I have learned a lot from them, and still learn from them on a daily basis.
 
#32 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Excellent post, Chris. It sure seems like we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Since we obviously can not please everyone then we must do what we feel is best.
 
#33 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

The fact that people THINK of dogs as consumer goods to be bought, sold, traded and disposed of because someone 'paid money' for them is the reason so many dogs end up in shelters, and the reason why puppy mills exist.

A dog is not the same as a card or a table. The 'owner' should not have the right to do whatever he/she wants with the dog just because he or she paid money for it. And a good breeder will always feel responsible for each and every dog they brought to the world... and will enforce that responsibility through a contact.

I for one would never support a breeder who sells their puppies WITHOUT limited registration or who sells pups to the highest bidder.
 
#34 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Castlemaid
Very nice post it shows much thought and concern.
My problem is not so much the money issue once I agree to aprice that issue is setteled. It is more with breeder control.

I have had 5 German Shepherds in my life time I learned many things about this wonderful breed from each and every one.
All 5 of them led a full and healthy and happy life no matter what happened it was my responsibilty to see to that.

But to have a breeder tell me what I can or can not do with my dog is way over the top.
Some people might be fine with that but or me I feel that I am more than qualified to make any decision concerning my dog if I need the breeders advise I will ask for it.
 
#35 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Originally Posted By: larrydee33Castlemaid
Very nice post it shows much thought and concern.
My problem is not so much the money issue once I agree to aprice that issue is setteled. It is more with breeder control.

I have had 5 German Shepherds in my life time I learned many things about this wonderful breed from each and every one.
All 5 of them led a full and healthy and happy life no matter what happened it was my responsibilty to see to that.

But to have a breeder tell me what I can or can not do with my dog is way over the top.
Some people might be fine with that but or me I feel that I am more than qualified to make any decision concerning my dog if I need the breeders advise I will ask for it.
And why should any breeder entrust you with a puppy THEY brought to the world and let you do 'as you please'? Because you say you are qualified? So does every Tom, **** & Harry that goes to buy a puppy. They all feel 'qualified' to make decisions about their dogs, and while you may be qualified, most are NOT.

The contract is there to protect the DOG. It's there to make sure the dog doesn't end up in a puppy mill, or in the pound, because unfortunately, the vast majority of people who buy dogs are neither qualified nor knowledgeable to make those decisions, and breeders cannot possibly know whether the person they are selling the dog to is or isn't a good candidate based on their 'word.'
 
#36 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Originally Posted By: larrydee33Lee
From a consumers point of view a limited regestration gives all the power to the breeder. It's the big brother syndrome in spades.
In other words you have to do this or do that or get a Sch 1 before I will give you a full AKC regestration.
What if the husband or wife dies. The customer can't sell the dog without the breeder approving the sale and then the new customer gets a limited regestartion. I don't think so!!
Jeez and after over 30 years with GSD`s I was totally mistaken. Seem`s to me it`s the breeders that care about improving the breed that apply certain restrictions. It`s their reputation on the line and this is a small world where reputation is everything.
Perhaps some people consider a dog just property then I would agree. It`s just a consumer good so then the end user would have their discretion.
Thank God for breeders that will forgo a sale in the name of responsible breed stewardship.
 
#37 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

the last breeder i got my dog from really did not ask me any questions about what i was going to do with my dog, did not ask any references from me, no questionaire about me, etc. i guess that should have been a red flag.

i commend any breeder for thouroughly questioning potential buyers, geting references and anything else they have to do to ensure their pup has a safe happy home with lots of stimulation, socialization, etc. even if it is a first time gsd owner, chances are if the breeder takes time to educate them, and the people seem open to all the information the breeder gives them, and the breeder is willing to be available for questions and concerns for first time buyers it can work. its gotta be a hard business to let pups go. but being in the business for any legth of time i am sure most breeders have a pretty good idea after talking to people who is going to be a good owner and who isn't.

debbie
 
#38 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Am I missing something here? The only restriction in our contract is breeder has first right of refusal. How is that a bad thing? The contract also HELPS me, it lays out what happens in the event of something like hip dysplasia. I don't see how a breeder having that little bit of control is a bad thing. I have no interest in breeding (and apparently neither does larrydee). So I don't care about papers. I don't plan on ever having to give up my dog but if God forbid something happened to cause this (most likely it would be something happening to ME because I know my husband could not handle Flash on his own) I know Flash will be taken care of in the way he deserves to be taken care of. He will not end up unwanted and euthanized in a shelter. How in the world is any of this a bad thing?
 
#39 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

"the last breeder i got my dog from really did not ask me any questions about what i was going to do with my dog, did not ask any references from me, no questionaire about me, etc. i guess that should have been a red flag."

Depends. I posted this on another thread, I think..:)

People can and have told breeders anything . People can say they will work, show, etc the dog and ask for a top dog. References? They will only give you specific ones. And then, for whatever reason (changing situation, time, $$ or no inclination), it does not happen.

A questionaire does not give you a feeling - talking directly to the person does. Will it be a 100%? No, but a good (don't laugh) BS indicator for a certain section of people will help. Both Gabor and I talk to people. People talk differently to different people and you pick up more that way - good and not so good. We have turned donw people for stretching the truth - if they do that when looking into a pup, what else are they "stretching" about?

We send the contact for review and ask for questions.

But, when the person signs the contract - they are saying that they agree with that contract and it's contents. So, when the buyer does not follow the contract or something outside the contract (that they read and agreed to) happens, then what is the correct course?

I do not like co-ownerships. Had one. Breeder did nothing, no support/$$, nada, except claim credit for a dog that was not worked, titled and show by her.
 
#40 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

"the last breeder i got my dog from really did not ask me any questions about what i was going to do with my dog, did not ask any references from me, no questionaire about me, etc. i guess that should have been a red flag."

Depends. I posted this on another thread, I think..:)

People can and have told breeders anything . People can say they will work, show, etc the dog and ask for a top dog. References? They will only give you specific ones. And then, for whatever reason (changing situation, time, $$ or no inclination), it does not happen.

A questionaire does not give you a feeling - talking directly to the person does. Will it be a 100%? No, but a good (don't laugh) BS indicator for a certain section of people will help. Both Gabor and I talk to people. People talk differently to different people and you pick up more that way - good and not so good. We have turned donw people for stretching the truth - if they do that when looking into a pup, what else are they "stretching" about?

We send the contact for review and ask for questions.

But, when the person signs the contract - they are saying that they agree with that contract and it's contents. So, when the buyer does not follow the contract or something outside the contract (that they read and agreed to) happens, then what is the correct course?

I do not like co-ownerships. Had one. Breeder did nothing, no support/$$, nada, except claim credit for a dog that was not worked, titled and show by her.
 
#41 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Originally Posted By: Nat
Originally Posted By: larrydee33Castlemaid
Very nice post it shows much thought and concern.
My problem is not so much the money issue once I agree to aprice that issue is setteled. It is more with breeder control.

I have had 5 German Shepherds in my life time I learned many things about this wonderful breed from each and every one.
All 5 of them led a full and healthy and happy life no matter what happened it was my responsibilty to see to that.

But to have a breeder tell me what I can or can not do with my dog is way over the top.
Some people might be fine with that but or me I feel that I am more than qualified to make any decision concerning my dog if I need the breeders advise I will ask for it.
And why should any breeder entrust you with a puppy THEY brought to the world and let you do 'as you please'? Because you say you are qualified? So does every Tom, **** & Harry that goes to buy a puppy. They all feel 'qualified' to make decisions about their dogs, and while you may be qualified, most are NOT.

The contract is there to protect the DOG. It's there to make sure the dog doesn't end up in a puppy mill, or in the pound, because unfortunately, the vast majority of people who buy dogs are neither qualified nor knowledgeable to make those decisions, and breeders cannot possibly know whether the person they are selling the dog to is or isn't a good candidate based on their 'word.'
Totally agree here!!
 
#42 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Originally Posted By: lhczth Since we obviously can not please everyone then we must do what we feel is best.
Yup.
And as was said, if people don't like it they won't be hard pressed to find another breeder with terms they find more reasonable.

Originally Posted By: jesusicaAm I missing something here? The only restriction in our contract is breeder has first right of refusal.
Actually, the main bone of contention seems to be limited registration. Most other common contractual terms haven't been discussed.
 
#43 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
Originally Posted By: lhczth Since we obviously can not please everyone then we must do what we feel is best.
Yup.
And as was said, if people don't like it they won't be hard pressed to find another breeder with terms they find more reasonable.

Originally Posted By: jesusicaAm I missing something here? The only restriction in our contract is breeder has first right of refusal.
Actually, the main bone of contention seems to be limited registration. Most other common contractual terms haven't been discussed.
And I just don't understand it, especially since the dog was spayed!
What use is that full registration if the dog has been spayed? I don't understand why that would be a deal breaker given plans to NOT breed.
The poster also questioned why breeders should get the dog back instead of the owner being able to sell the dog on their own.
 
#44 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Oh, and also questioned restrictions in general and argued against contracts. Unfortunately that is the way most people feel, they have paid for the dog now they can do whatever they want to it and they should never have to hear from the breeders again. That is by far the prevailing view on non-dog boards.
They fail to realize the contract helps protect the buyer as well.
 
#47 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Quote:Of the breeders posting, who bought their dogs on limited registration?
No, never have. Even the breeders that normally require it have sold to me with full registration. I also sold my entire B litter with full registration since I knew the ethics of the people who got them.

Quote:If you keep a puppy back from your breeding and then later sell it, do you start (can you?) the puppy on limited?
No, I register the pup with full registration.
 
#48 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

I bought one dog on limited, titled, OFA and koered the dog. His papers were released.

The pups I register in my own name to assess and hang onto for a time, I usually put limited on...Furious, my ****** female is on limited. Males, I *may* put on open. And no, once the registration is done in "full", there is no AKC process to revert to limited. I have sold several older pups on limited, and released them to full as per the contract. I keep original signed releases in each sold dogs folder that I expect to be titled, with the contract, and a note that they can be processed if contract is fulfilled, in the event I die.

Lee
 
#49 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Quote:Of the breeders posting, who bought their dogs on limited registration?
A couple times, yes. And it was no problem. In one case as soon as the bitch got her OFAs and SchH title and breeder gladly and quickly signed over full registration. Others we washed out for whatever reason and rehomed to other people, transferring the limited registration to them. We've also purchased several without limited registration, because the breeder just didn't deal with limited registration or it was an older pup purchased from an individual who had the dog already on full registration.


Quote:If you keep a puppy back from your breeding and then later sell it, do you start (can you?) the puppy on limited?
In the past, when we've fully intended to keep the pup ourselves long term, we registered on full registration. So if we did have to rehome the dog the full registration would go with it. That hasn't posed a problem yet as the only time we've rehomed pups we kept back ourselves was because they washed out due to Mild HD, so obviously they would never be breeding quality and in both of those cases they were spayed before being rehomed, so transferring the full registration wasn't an issue.

Moving forward, whether we plan to keep the pup ourselves long term or we're just keeping the pup back to assess and grow out for a bit, and the intentions from the start are that we may or may not keep the pup even if it does grow out well, we'll put it on limited from the get go. That way there is no issue if we rehome it, and easy enough to switch to full if we decide to keep it. All the pups we've placed with co-owners have been on limited, even though the co-owner couldn't breed them without our sign off. It just covers the possibility that the pup may wash out and they decide to rehome it.
 
#50 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Just wanted to add... Like Lisa did with her B litter, I'd be willing to consider selling a pup on full registration to an experienced person who's ethics were well known either through reputation or because I knew them personally. Though the contract would still state no breeding before titles and OFAs. But for a novice, or someone I'm meeting for the first time as a potential customer and who doesn't have a sound reputation that proceeds them, it's limited registration or no puppy.

I have sold 2 pups to people who had 20+ years experience and had titled many dogs, both on limited because the new owners were fine with that and had no worries about it. To these people I'd have gone with full registration if they'd asked, but it wasn't an issue for them.
 
#51 ·
Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Originally Posted By: larrydee33
Back in the day when a quality GSD puppy would cost you $300.00 to $500.00 that was one thing but now day's with the cost of a quality GSD pup going anywhere from $1000.00 to the $5000.00 range the consumer can not be any too careful in who they are dealing with.
This now has become a major investment.
An investment is something that generally goes up in value. Buy yourself a $2500 puppy and spay it and see what your investment is worth. Heck, don't spay it but let it be a pet for a couple of years and see what it is worth..... Not a very smart <u>investmen</u>t I am afraid.

If you buy a puppy that has limited registration but in the contract it is spelled out that you get full registration once ___________ happens (titles, hips x-rayed, etc etc) and the breeder dies? Well guess what? AKC can lift the limited registration. Seen it happen. Just save your contract.
 
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