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OTCH Puppy Breeder

14K views 110 replies 22 participants last post by  Haven 
#1 ·
We are searching for a German Shepherd male puppy bred from an OTCH male and an OTCH female hopefully within a day's drive from San Francisco. Does anyone know a breeder who might have a puppy or upcoming puppies that would qualify? Also, does anyone know a better way to search for one?

Many Thanks!
 
#2 ·
What are you actually looking for?

What I mean is: why are you picking out those specific credentials? What do you hope to get in a future puppy by looking for OTCH parents?
 
#4 ·
My bitch was ranked in the top 10 back in 2009 and 2010. She is working line. I would think any working line will take you there.
 
#20 ·
My bitch was ranked in the top 10 back in 2009 and 2010. She is working line. I would think any working line will take you there.
What a ridiculous statement.

Working lines have tons of breeders who haven't a clue what they're doing and putting dogs together willy-nilly for the straight back or sable color, just like the show lines have tons of breeders that oughtn't be breeding and are producing problems.

These working line dogs are no less likely to produce a dog that will take the owner to the championships as any other dog. Just because you are going with a WL dog, does not mean you can ignore where the dog is coming from, the knowledge of the breeders, etc.

Getting a dog through a CD is not that big of a deal, but getting a sire and dam through an OTCH would stack the deck in your favor when it comes to getting a pup that can follow in their footsteps. Dogs that have other significant accomplishments behind them can most likely produce what it takes as well.

Yes, a dedicated owner that is willing to persevere with a less than the full package can maybe get to that level, but that wouldn't be the norm, I don't think. Heck with all the WL dogs on this site, only a handful of people have persevered enough to put any title whatsoever on their dogs.

There are no shortcuts when it comes to finding a breeder, but narrowing the field considerably by placing a level or performance on the potential sire and dam can cut away a lot of the litters/breeders they are not interested in, which gives them more time to focus on their short-list.
 
#5 ·
Well, in that case the obvious answer would be to go to some shows in your area and figure out which of those dogs might be a good fit for your training style and preferences, then track down whoever bred those dogs. Scores are only a small part of the story -- finding a dog who suits your style is more important if you want to replicate those scores in competition.

But I'll also throw out a recommendation for von Sontausen, who is (I think) in that general area and has been producing some nice obedience dogs. One of them is located in my region, and I wouldn't be surprised if that dog OTCh's in the near future. von Sontausen German Shepherd Dogs
 
#6 ·
Ledger , was #2 in nationwide competition . One or two points shy of #1 . Limited shows to begin with - then owner went through surprise divorce - entered at the very very last show and lost by one or two points ---

however ---- your best bet is to look for over all desirable qualities which include willingness , good retrieve, balanced body, environmental soundness, appropriate social attitude , health .

the rest is up to you.
 
#8 ·
Thank you all for the great suggestions!

DawnAndJR: Are you anywhere near the Bay Area, and if so have you bred your bitch?

Merciel: We were living in Stockton, California when we competed, so we'll need to track down some local events where we live now, but your absolutely right that would be a good place to start. The Von Sontausen dogs do seem like they are the type of dogs we're looking for, but strangely enough I can't find on their website where they are located. I'm guessing because of their area code they're back where we used to live 30 years ago which means we might have even met them at trials. Do you know which city they are near?

Carmen: Is Ledger your dog now? If so, have you bred him with another champion?

Thanks to all, and if you are interested in GSD obedience trials you should watch the video "Obedience Dog Championships from day 3 of Crufts 2013 with Jenny Gould & Zankanja Bitter 'N' Twisted" on YouTube. I never saw even a Border Collie perform so magically and with such enthusiasm!
 
#9 ·
Ledger was my breeding and his dam was an Obedience Grand Victrix -- this line continues by way of the far-background in my 35 year continuous line.
Ledger would be over 30 years of age - so the answer is no .
He was never bred .
I would not chose a champion -- I would chose the dog , not the title -- . I have produced Best in Group and Best in Show GSD and ROM (register of Merit) and none of them were produced by "champions" .

I am saying this because I want to impress on you to have a goal in mind , a picture and a feel for an ideal .

I spent years trying to get more recognition of the value of the obedience ring and temperament test for the GSDCof C , which finally relented , and the first trial held at the Nationals had 2 or 3 dogs that passed the test . 2 of them were my breeding owned by someone other than myself.

Not much has changed.

You want a competitive obedience club - then go around to your local clubs, not necessarily schutzhund.

I don't know where you live , but say if you were in my area I would say , Swansea Obedience, Victoria County Obedience , Lab Owners Obedience etc etc. These names may not be current - but this is where you had good exposure.
Another thing to do is to contact the AKC for local obedience trials and then go and attend and see who has what .

and in case anyone gets their knickers in a knot - I am more or less retired ----
 
#12 ·
Carmen: As I'm searching, I keep getting the feeling that GSDs are much more popular back East than here in the San Francisco Bay Area. The closest GSD club is over 70 miles away! Strange but still worth the trip to see some GSD Obedience Trials.

I sent an email to Julia Priest, and I am looking forward to her reply as the philosophy represented in her website is very in tune with what we are looking for.

I do understand what you are saying about champions. As we might prefer to do Agility or even Tracking now instead, we're looking for the "type" of GSD with the temperament to perform Obedience Trials enthusiastically NOT (and let me repeat that again) NOT for a winner. We found Obedience Trials a fun way to bond with our dog and to meet other GSD owners; we would have continued going even if we had lost.

Thanks for your great advice (even though I don't own any knickers.)
Stuart
 
#13 ·
Steve: Schutzhund training was coming to the forefront at about the time we retired our first GSD about 30 years ago so we never got familiar with it. If you read my response to Carmspack, what Schutzhund title do you think would best suit our yearnings?
 
#14 ·
It's really not about the title. Having handler/owner-trained titles at high levels in the program is important, because that tells you that the breeder has trained a dog to that level, and that the breeder might have an eye for what makes a good dog. But, IMO, it does not matter so much about whether the individual dog has the title as whether the breeder understands the dog, is honest about its capability, and knows how to put together a good match.

My dog Pongu is one of the top World Cynosport Rally dogs in the world. He's ranked #1 nationally in his competitive division for 2013 and #10 overall worldwide in all divisions. He has about 35 titles across four different sport venues and is currently training in agility, where he's picking up the obstacles pretty quickly (learned to run six weave poles in 5 days; we'll probably start trialing next spring), and nosework, where he's showing a lot of promise but I'm not that into the sport so I don't know that I'll invest the effort to trial in that. I got far enough to see that Pongu could do it, though.

He's also an insane fearful genetic mess of a dog who should never ever be bred. What his titles really say is that he's a smart dog who happens to belong to someone who spent a lot of time and money playing around with him, not that he's an inherently good dog (he isn't) or that he would reproduce desirable traits if bred (he definitely wouldn't).

I'm using him as an example to make the point that titles only go so far. You can use them as a useful filtering mechanism to knock out breeders who never title any of their dogs, but IMO it is not very useful to get too fixated on looking for a UDX-OTCH pair or whatever other combination of letters you've got in mind. In and of itself, that won't tell you whether you've got a dog with the potential to perform well.

With that said, I've spent a fair amount of time looking for dogs with the potential to achieve high levels in obedience (that being one of my primary goals for my next dog), and I do think that Schutzhund breeders are, as a group, your best bet for finding a dog who can excel in one or more competitive sports.

Whenever I see a dog whose obedience I really like, almost always there are SchH/IPO dogs close up in the background of that dog's pedigree, and the breeder is or was personally involved in the sport. It seems that those breeders have done the best job of preserving genuine working ability in their lines.

So I do think that if you seriously want to do dog sports with a GSD, it is well worth taking a long and serious look at those breeders.
 
#15 ·
Yeah, like Merciel said, I wouldnt focus on only a title Haven. I know there's a club, NoCal GSD fanciers that has a lot of events at Lake Elisabeth in Fremont. You also have a lot of Schutzhund clubs in the Bay Area. Deleta has one in Hollister. I'd say go around as much as possible and see the dogs, meet the people. See which ones match what you'd like.
 
#16 ·
I can recommend a litter , sire was a dual police dog , retired when his handler , the dept Chief retired, went for other training and certified as SAR . Dam comes from line dense in working SAR / narcotic / bomb / police dogs .
My breeding on both --- but not my dogs . So not my litter.

Experienced trainer and evaluator raised them and tested them. Should be a shoe-in for any detection, tracking , obedience .
 
#17 ·
Look into Cindy Reed and True Haus kennels. I've seen a few of her dogs work, they're really nice, and you'll get the obedience/drive you want out of them. Mycobracr on the forum (look him up) has a dog from her, he posts videos and pictures, she seems like a great worker at a very young age.

If I was out on the west coast, that would definitely be a breeder I'd be looking into.
 
#18 ·
#21 ·
Ok...lets be serious. You won't find this pair. I just looked up the statistics and TWO GSDs received an OTCH in 2013, and none in 2012. I'll assume the numbers weren't much bigger in the years prior to that. So you'll be lucky to find a breeding where ONE of the parents has an OTCH.

I'll say this...an OTCH, takes commitment on the part of the owner/handler/trainer, and consistency and dependability on the part of the dog. Sure, you need working ability, but the truth is, any breed is capable of an OTCH. You don't need the same drives that many of us value in IPO in the AKC ring. I've actually seen it where the drive/power we value in IPO is a detriment in AKC because the dogs do things with speed and power and then end up losing points for bumping handlers or being inches out of position. An OTCH...is all about those points, and getting 195/200 or higher, in two classes in the same day, is a lot about the type of training and IMO somewhat less about the drive.
 
#22 ·
The real problem with looking for an OTCH-OTCH pairing in GSDs is that they don't happen.

There aren't enough GSDs competing at high levels in AKC obedience for that to be a realistic option. Fewer than 40 living dogs nationwide in the breed have that title (I think it may actually be fewer than 30 by now, in fact). Of those that do, how many are spayed or neutered? How many are too old to breed? How many have issues that don't kill their competition chances but would knock them out of consideration in a serious, ethical breeding program?

And how many of those dogs would make good breeding partners for each other? Some of them are ASLs, some are WGSLs, some are WLs. I have no idea how many of them have complementary pedigrees within each line, but I would venture a guess that it's not 100%.

Further, there's limited overlap between top obedience competitors and top breeders. You can be a world-class trainer and know nothing whatsoever about how to breed a good dog. Conversely you can be a great breeder and only have middling competition scores (for yourself, anyway -- a great breeder with a long track record should have great scores to show from other handlers, eventually). The skillsets needed to excel at each pursuit are not identical.

Even in Golden Retrievers and Border Collies it would be hard (but not totally impossible) to find an OTCH-OTCH pairing; you'd be better off setting the bar at UD/UDX and then looking for breeders who have consistently produced dogs able to achieve OTCHs, even if they didn't personally train their own dogs to that level.

In GSDs, because of the limited numbers active in high-level AKC competition, I think the best approach is to look at IPO breeders who are successful in that venue, study how their dogs perform during the obedience portions specifically, and then look for proven results among the dogs that they've produced (since not that many IPO breeders are active in AKC obedience, let alone gunning for OTCHs, but they might sell to people who do that).
 
#24 ·
Thanks to All of You!

(I'm not very savvy about posting so I think I'll just respond at the end of the thread so my apologies if it's confusing.)

Merciel: Your last two postings were VERY insightful especially for those of us not familiar with Schutzhund training. They ought to be required reading. I've read a few other threads and members have kindly discussed potential breeders; when we have a candidate I'll start a new thread asking for comments. Sadly, Julia Priest doesn't have any puppies and won't anytime soon. Question: Is the IPO rating a relatively sufficient mark to assure us of a quality dog or is there a more advanced level that would be a better indicator?

Martemchik: Your comment (and Steve's most recent post) about the rarity of GSD OTchs really puts the nail in the coffin. The world of GSDs has clearly moved on to Schutzhund training. I've glanced at the True Haus Kennels site. As it is clearly off-topic for this thread, is there another thread on germanshepherds.com that you would recommend that addresses the merit or the demerit of attack training?

Steve Strom: Now that I've focused on Schutzhund, as you suggested, there are many clubs near SF Bay Area. There are also at least a couple of Schutzhund trainers here in Santa Rosa who might be able to make recommendations.

Selzer: Like Merciel, a posting that should almost be required reading. I most definitely will consider what a breeder has achieved for her/his own GSDs. We will steer clear of breeders who are in effect mini-puppy mills.

Carmspack: You wrote you "can recommend a litter, sire was a dual police dog..." Could you tell me which one?

Gatordog: Congratulations on your CD!

lhczth: Ajay's website is outdated but he appears to be in the East Bay. I'll check him out.

Once again MANY THANKS to all who have responded.
 
#25 ·
Question: Is the IPO rating a relatively sufficient mark to assure us of a quality dog or is there a more advanced level that would be a better indicator?
That... well, that's its own huge can of worms.

I'll just give you the criteria that I personally settled on for myself. (Context, in case it's helpful: once I have an opening for another dog [so probably not for quite a few years], my plan is to go for the very best all-around performance puppy I can find, with an eye toward competing at high levels in AKC sports and potentially dabbling in IPO. I want an OTCh dog, or at least a dog where the limiting factor in the partnership is my lack of skill as a trainer and not my dog being literally insane.)

-- The breeder has personally trained and trialed at least one dog to an IPO3. Doesn't necessarily have to be the dog that's being bred, although of course that would be great if it works out that way;

-- The breeder has personally trained and trialed at least one dog in AKC venues (obedience and agility preferred, Open or higher level preferred); the point here is that I want a breeder who has firsthand experience with the different environmental pressures of those venues and is familiar with the slightly different training and temperament demands of those sports. You can't always just plug-and-play an IPO dog in AKC obedience. Sometimes you can, but not always, and I personally am looking for a breeder who knows the difference;

-- Both dogs in the breeding pair have at least an IPO1 or a CDX. This is where I'm personally setting the bar for "okay, both sire and dam have shown evidence that they are capable of excellence in these sports." You might put it higher or lower, I dunno. Coupled with my other criteria, IPO1 and CDX are sufficient for me to feel comfortable that the dogs are suitable for my purposes, so that's where I put it for my own consideration;

-- I really like what I've seen from dogs out of that program, either via lots of videos (of both trials and training) or seeing them work in person;

-- all appropriate health tests and certifications are in order;

and

-- Prior dogs produced from this program have a proven track record of accomplishments in IPO and/or AKC venues (thereby demonstrating that the breeder is not only a decent competitor but is capable of producing dogs who can replicate or exceed the breeder's own results, and that other sport people have made votes of confidence in the program by taking their dogs. This one is important to me because I suck at puppy evaluations and so to some extent I have to rely on the judgments of others to bear out my own).

It's not uncommon for an IPO breeder to sell primarily to IPO competitors, so sometimes really good kennels won't have a lot of representation in AKC venues, and the representation they do have might not consist entirely of scores that blow your socks off. That's not a problem for me, especially if the dogs are being run by less experienced handlers (i.e., if I see a dog that's pulling mid- to high 180s in Novice A, to me that's a plus, because those are good scores for a newbie. But if I see a dog that's pulling the same mid-180s in Novice B, never goes beyond that, and the handler's other three dogs all scored in the mid-190s straight up through Utility and this dog is the only one who ever topped out that low, then maybe I'm not quite so sanguine about that string of numbers).


All this stuff is negotiable, of course. But those are the standards I made up for my own Imaginary Future Puppy consideration.

Also, I do like all the breeders whose names have been suggested for your consideration so far. I'm more familiar with some than others, but I think those are all good recommendations.
 
#26 ·
I'm not sure what attack training has to do with anything (I've never seen her website). I just know her, and I have trained/titled in her chosen sport (SDA). If you contact mycobrasr, he can tell you more about it as he works with her weekly and is their training helper.

Personally, the more a trainer/breeder can show their dogs can do, just shows that they’re willing to do anything and have the nerve to accomplish whatever their handler throws at them. That’s really all I care about when I get a puppy. Will the dog do what I want?

My dog (first dog ever) went from doing AKC obedience, to AKC rally, to AKC agility, and now we’re doing SDA and IPO. He can do all those things. Not at an OTCH level (99% due to me) but he is excited/happy to do whatever I throw at him. If he wasn’t, it would affect MY enjoyment of the activity I want to do. So just because a breeding pair might be trained in some sort of “attack” work (my dog is at this point)…doesn’t mean the puppies are going to need that or have that genetically engrained in them…you’ll just know that more than likely they’re capable of that if 4 years from now it’s something that you get into.

Some people will argue with me…but my dog’s “attack” training is that I can turn him on/off of a target with commands. So I can tell him to get “suspicious/bark” at something/someone and then I can just as easily tell him to calm down and walk nicely next to me because it’s not a real threat. His temperament…doesn’t turn him on to random people/threats and he will not attack a stranger “just because.” The barking…would turn into a bite if the threat gets close enough, or the threat does keep coming.
 
#27 ·
Schutzhund/IPO is what YOU make of it, both in doing it and how you use it to evaluate dogs. It is not "attack training". The knowledge I have gained doing Schutzhund with a few of my dogs is irreplaceable. Also the experience doing SchH with my current breeding dog and what it has taught me about him (like what traits his pedigree is actually expressing) has been invaluable. I personally put a LOT of emphasis on Schutzhund but not just getting a title. It is about the process. Having done it, I understand what goes into it and what can be learned about a dog in the process. I do not make breeding or buying decisions simply based on whether or not a dog has a SchH title. The entire context matters. I like to actually SEE the dog working (and meet the dog casually), and I also weigh what I know about the breeder/owner/trainer, how they train, what types of dogs they train and how that influences my decision.
 
#28 ·
Merciel: WOOOOOOOW!!! Your reply is exactly what I would have written to start this thread if I had had the knowledge. Now I have some specific parameters in current terms of what to look for. The challenge will be finding a breeder that matches the requirements here in the SF Bay Area (heck, we'd be willing to travel anywhere on the Left Coast to bring home the right puppy!)

Martemchik: Your last paragraph regarding "attack" training answered an important question for us. We'd very much like to have the ability to "turn off" of a target. I sent a message to mycobraracr, and I look forward to his reply. And... congratulations on your dog's achievements!

Liesje: Your reply makes extremely good sense. However, since my training experience is thirty years out-of-date and strictly with AKC Obedience Training will I be too ignorant to judge a breeder firsthand? (I do intend to start a new thread if we can find a breeder with puppies to ask for forum comments on the breeder.)

Thanks again all!
 
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