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Old 08-23-2014, 01:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Importance schutzhund titles

I am researching on gsd breeders in India for my next gsd. I was happy to find a breeder with good success in Indian sieger shows in recent past. His German import dogs also come with very good schutzhund titled dogs in their pedigree.

I believed that this will increase the chance of getting show quality dog with good working ability.

However I am informed by the same breeder that unfortunately in Indian show circles schutzhund titles in the pedigree are not given any importance.

Moreover he told me that even after having schutzhund titled dogs in the pedigree there is only 50 percent chance of getting a dog with good working ability as a guard dog and that lot depends on training.

The breeder may or may not be 100 percent correct. But what I respect is that instead of bragging or advertising about his dogs' pedigree he chose to inform me what be knew (even risking disappointing a prospective customer)

However I really want to know is it really that much of a gamble even after having so many titled dogs in the pedigree? If so they why waste money after pedigree?

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Santanu
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Old 08-23-2014, 03:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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A puppy is always a gamble.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEZPUR1976 View Post
I am researching on gsd breeders in India for my next gsd. I was happy to find a breeder with good success in Indian sieger shows in recent past. His German import dogs also come with very good schutzhund titled dogs in their pedigree.

I believed that this will increase the chance of getting show quality dog with good working ability.

However I am informed by the same breeder that unfortunately in Indian show circles schutzhund titles in the pedigree are not given any importance.

Moreover he told me that even after having schutzhund titled dogs in the pedigree there is only 50 percent chance of getting a dog with good working ability as a guard dog and that lot depends on training.

The breeder may or may not be 100 percent correct. But what I respect is that instead of bragging or advertising about his dogs' pedigree he chose to inform me what be knew (even risking disappointing a prospective customer)

However I really want to know is it really that much of a gamble even after having so many titled dogs in the pedigree? If so they why waste money after pedigree?

Best
Santanu
Pedigree guarantees the sire and dam are capable of working. In Germany, show dogs all have to be health screened and titled before they are allowed to breed. That said, titles can and have been bought by show trainers for some dogs so it isn't really an accurate measure of working ability unless you know the breeder and seen the dogs work themselves.

If you're getting a puppy with untitled parents, you certainly do not know what level of working ability the parents had and your puppy may potentially have. Also, as stated, there are no untitled German dogs as studs or bitches, these untitled dogs probably come from somewhere else and may not have the same amount of testing done on them before breeding.

Of course, if you trust your breeder and his experience, sometimes getting a untitled dog may not be so bad. My pup doesn't have parents with titles. But I've seen the dogs my breeder has produced and they're mostly active police and military dogs with proven working ability as well as those performing at Schh trials. So chances are my pup will come with some working ability.

Also, if you're that concerned with working ability, why not get a working line dog instead of show line?
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Old 08-24-2014, 06:36 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Unfortunately there are hardly any breeder in India who specialize in working line, except perhaps one kennel in India (far away from my place). However this particular breeder does not seem to participate in shows. So it is really difficult to judge what he/she is breeding.

The reputed gsd kennels in India aim to breed dogs to participate in siger type shows only. In the absence of schutzhund type competition in India, it is really difficult to trust some one who claims only to breed protection dogs without showing them to any creditable judge. Ultimately getting a dog to attack should not be the only goal, right.

So I decided to go for a well known breeder with credibility and whose dogs have schutzhund titles in their pedigree. That way i may have a pup from well tempered parents with no faults, also also a decent chance of having guarding abilities. That was my thinking.

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Santanu
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:10 AM   #5 (permalink)
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is looking outside of your country a possibility for finding a pup?
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Old 08-25-2014, 01:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
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In your case the answer is test the parents yourself. The breeder that is unwilling to let you do this is not worth buying from.
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks,
What type test are helpful to determine guarding ability in an adult dog?
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:24 AM   #8 (permalink)
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You need a pro to read the dog, alot of dummies do everything all wrong. You cannot go and judge a dog for yourself without alot of experience.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:20 AM   #9 (permalink)
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True, but still are there some signs which a novice signs of a guard dog which a novice can detect if those qualities are present in the dog?

I can share one my experiences of encountering a guard dog.

I have a five month old gsd pup named Duke. When i was in the process of getting duke from a pet shop in my home town, I insisted that i want to see both the dam and the sire. Duke's mother Tuffy was owned by the breeder, but his father Leo is owned by another person. Both parties agreed to show their dogs.

The evening i went Leo (Dukes father) remains a memorable experience till date. The owner was not present at that time. I rang him, and he told me that he has already informed his mother who will show me the dog. They live in the 1st floor of a building. The moment i entered the staircase, i heard deep a growl (very hard to explain but i will never forget). I stood in front of a grilled gate (thankfully locked from inside).

Moments later a gery and black colored wolf like figure emerged and with several deep bark came rush towards the gate. I had to gather lot of courage to hold my ground.
I made an attempt to make friendly gesture towards him, and approach the gate. I was immediately cautioned by Leo (by growling and barking) that it was not a smart idea. His bark was deep, and look was confident. He was not one of those dogs who would go on barking and barking.

Leo made it very clear that if i stood quitely and did nothing he will not harm me, but not friendly gesture are welcome. Then came the lard lady. Smilingly she said i was one of the very few person who had the guts to stand near the gate. I was amazed to see the change in the dog as soon as the lady came. He moved away from the gate and relaxed few yards away keeping his eye fixed on me. I talked to the lady, leo was absolutely quiet.
Then i requested the lady whether i could take Leo's photo. She called him, leo immediately came and posed for photo with in a foot away from me. Finally I thanked her before leaving i tried to make a friendly gesture to the duke. Again i was cautioned be shard bark that "donot even think about it".

I am not expert in dogs, but i will never forget that experience.

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Santanu
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:29 AM   #10 (permalink)
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How did he make it clear?

Here's the issue with your situation...most people would be really stupid to actually go at a dog that is growling/barking at them. So in 99.99% of situations, a dog that can bark at someone, will keep that person away. So until someone actually GOES AT this dog, with an intent to harm it, you won't see what the dog actually does.

What your situation describes is what most novices see, and what most people want to see. A dog that comes forward, barks, does something to scare away a person. No one is really going to test to see if that dog will bite or not…because if it will, well, that’s kind of painful. There are other signs in the dog’s body language, that I can almost guarantee you missed which would’ve told someone that “knows” what the dog’s true intentions were. Those signs are very small, very particular, and not something a novice that hasn’t seen countless dogs either present or not present those things would be able to notice…especially in a high stress situation with a dog coming at them.

I’m not saying the dog wasn’t a good guard dog, but it’s almost impossible to tell from a story over the internet, and it’s almost as hard from just seeing him react to a neutral/friendly person. You weren’t a real threat, you didn’t present a threat after the dog reacted, so the dog won without having to take it to the next level. It is unknown what his reaction would be, if you did take it to that level.
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