PLenty of red flags but awesome dogs

[wolfy dog]

So yesterday I visited a non-GSD breeder (no breed mentioning due to confidentiality) somewhere in the US.
I'll start from the very beginning.
Several ads on the internet, a very messy, cluttered front and back yard. Inside: very welcoming people, about 5 females and the stud dog, the place in a moderate state of hoarding, no barking or fighting , despite unaltered females and litters, strong dog smell, two litters (one born day before), very social, sweet dogs, great looking dogs with awesome temperament.
Dogs and pups are fed a cheap grocery store food, bred back to back for about 4 times before being retired as breeding dogs, no contract, pups sold under 7 weeks but happy to keep the pup a few more weeks. They all live and are raised inside.
They raise champions,the dogs and pups are well socialized, well built and healthy and the breeders honest about their philosophy and trustworthy.
This is really confusing and it made me realize that keeping an open mind increases your options. Your take on this?

[Galathiel]

Do they do health testing? How old are the females when they have their first litter(s)? You can have conformationally great dogs that are prone to disease. I would want that ruled out from the onset by having dogs that are cleared of the common for their breed diseases.

[wolfy dog]

Originally Posted by Galathiel

Do they do health testing? How old are the females when they have their first litter(s)? You can have conformationally great dogs that are prone to disease. I would want that ruled out from the onset by having dogs that are cleared of the common for their breed diseases.

Minimal health testing on the stud only, dogs are bred early; not sure on which heat.

[Andaka]

What makes the dogs "awesome"?

[martemchik]

Health testing is the big one for me, but how do they raise champions? How many champions do they have in their lines? Do they show consistently? It's just interesting that for someone that shows, probably pays 1000s in entry/handler fees to get a champion, doesn't health test.

I could really care less what the facility looks like, what the dogs are fed...they don't pass on those traits to the puppies. There's a reason why the grocery store foods are still on the market, most people still use them.

The weird thing with other breeds is that many of them don't have a temperament test/requirement. There is a temperament standard, but not really the Schutzhund type test to prove it. Germany has the SchH1 requirement to breed, and its poured over to the United States as people want to live up to the "founder's standard." With other breeds...especially what are commonly referred to as companion breeds, its too much of an expectation to expect people to go way out of their way to test temperament in ways that their customers don't even care about.

And yeah...the awesome part. The worst place to gauge a dog is in their home environment...its where they're comfortable, and they have been "trained" in a way to act in a certain matter. If the breeder thought his dogs weren't going to impress you, probably wouldn't invite you over, or lock up the problem dogs. Its the same with GSDs...you can come to my house and think mine is awesome, but the true test is when he's out and about in a higher stress situation. No breeder will invite you over if they have a crazy/aggressive GSD...unless they're trying to impress you with their "guarding skills."

[wolfy dog]

Originally Posted by Andaka

What makes the dogs "awesome"?

Their temperament, sociability, being able to get along despite intact animals with litters, their conformation, coat condition.

[Liesje]

Depends on the breed, IMO. Each breed I'm interested in has it's own health concerns. In general, no I do not write someone off immediately because their home is not spotless or they are not feeding $60/bag dog food.

[wolfy dog]

And.....if I had "found" a dog like these in the shelter I would have never been picky and taken him/her home in a heart beat.

[Wild Wolf]

Originally Posted by wolfy dog

They raise champions,the dogs and pups are well socialized, well built and healthy and the breeders honest about their philosophy and trustworthy.

You can't claim they are healthy without seeing vet examination records and having the dogs health tested. A dog with cancer can look healthy.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by wolfy dog

And.....if I had "found" a dog like these in the shelter I would have never been picky and taken him/her home in a heart beat.

I'm not sure where you're going with this statement but most "byb" breeders that I have met are a lot like the one you describe. They have perfectly well behaved dogs, they look good, they take care of them, they live with them, they are truly well taken care of pets. That's the kind of place I bought my dog from. The difference with the shelter and these people is that any money you give to a shelter will go towards helping another dog find a home or get some vet care. When you give money to people like this, instead of investing it in their dogs, they probably buy something nice for themselves or they're supporting themselves on their puppies. I'll add though that my boy's breeders do care about their dogs and have a contract, a right of first refusal, and will take any dog back that has to be rehomed.

I'm not sure about the breed or what the "going rate" would be for those dogs, but if you have two litters on the ground at the same time, its a pretty nice paycheck at the end of 8 weeks when all of them are sold. Rarely are these types of situations for the "love" of the breed. It's not hard to plan to have litters at different times, especially if you have 5 breeding bitches.

Anyways...can you answer how their dogs are champions? And how many they have produced? Or was that just something written on the web page without any actual backing behind it?