Buying a puppy from a breeder is a "gamble"

[doggiedad]

i don't buy the breeder breeds a dog that fits my
personality. you always hear the breeder picked my
pup for me. do you ever hear the breeder didn't have a
pup that's a match for me? i think when shape the
dogs temperament. when you find a breeder and you
tell them you want "pick of the litter" how is the breeder
picking a pup for you? when you buy from a reputable
breeder i think the chances of having a problem dog
is slim besides people cause the problems with their dogs.

i think you can have success with a rescue, stray or a pup
from a reputable breeder. if you don't know how to be successful
with your dog find a reputable trainer.

Originally Posted by wildo

Do you buy it? Are there enough documented cases of people seeking a breeder producing dogs suited to the buyer's needs, but in the end the dog didn't turn out as anticipated?

In my opinion, I've played the gamble game with my pet store dog. My next dog, I plan on "removing" that gamble by purchasing from a breeder producing dogs that are well suited for what I have in mind.

Where I'm going with this is really the push towards rescue when people ask about buying a dog (regardless of breed). Seems to me, even in an adult dog where you can more/less see their personality, temperament, structure, etc- they are still every bit as much of a gamble as a puppy from a reputable breeder. Do you agree or disagree? I'm just not sure getting a puppy is really all that much of a gamble when you've done your research.

[KayleeGSD]

I think any time you buy or take in ANY dog from a breeder, store, or shelter you are always taking a chance regardless of price or where the dog came from. My experience has been an interesting one. We have had wonderful dogs from many different places including expensive GSDs from good breeders. We have had wonderful shelter dogs too that were GSDs and they found a forever home with us. It is sad that puppy mills are allowed to operate along with people who breed inbred dogs, and engage in bad breeding which leaves the dog and owners with terrible problems. I thank all of the good breeders out there who do the right thing for the GSD breed, and breed healthy well rounded dogs!

So you have the health aspect of dogs and each dog born is an individual with their own personality. As they grow you will figure out what it is they need and like to do. What drives and potential you can bring out in the pup as they grow. With puppies at least for me I am looking for a square body with no show dog slant in the spine, hips, or back legs. I am looking to see if the pup is alert with bright eyes. How interested are they in me and if they come to me when introduced. A pup who is not interested in me and wants nothing to do with me I would not take.

Good breeders can help you figure out which dog may fit your wants, but in the end you really never know what kind of dog you are going to have until you get to know them as they grow up. One thing I have always done is encourage and engage all of our dogs with different activities. Certain activities some liked more than others.

Kaylee did all of those things when she was little. Bright eyes, alert, and was curious and highly interested in my mother. She wanted to come over to her and play. I had nothing to do with getting her or picking her out. Once she brought her home we discovered that this pup is not your average mild temperament companion pet. Her genetics from her parents are from the American Working line and majority of the liters have become working dogs. As she has grown we discovered her drives, temperament, and over all personality is a serious working dog. Kaylee's brother is actually a working police K9 officer for the Millsboro, DE police department.

I had no clue about this info until after the pup was brought home and I noticed she was very different. We had to learn and honor what this dog needed. The very first week she was here you would have thought oh this is going to be a relaxed easy going dog, lol.

[Liesje]

The sheep herding is a better illustration, I think. I've done multiple herding "lessons" with Nikon. I'm a city girl and had never been anywhere near a sheep before his first "lesson", so there was no training or exposure that happened before that day. I handed him to the instructor and she took him in the ring. There were no other motivators, rewards, corrective devices, just her, my dog, and the sheep. Nikon's a natural at it and it's not often that a border collie person gives high praise to a GSD for *their* style of herding (no one does any HGH stuff save for a few people on the east coat). It just came naturally to Nikon and there was nothing else forcing him to work or motivating him to work. When we went back it was the exact same result. I say "lesson" in quotations because it was pure instinct and I just stood there holding the camera.

[KristiM]

I find the idea of genetic "talents" or instinct very intriguing. I think it is definitely more obvious looking at herding, border collies come to my mind with their amazing ability to just "know" what they are doing. There are many other areas where these genetic "talents" come through, golden retrievers who for many generations are bred for competitive obedience seem to just naturally prance in perfect position, GSDs who just know what schutzhund is and how to do it. I used to be a big believer in nurture over nature but over the years I have seen and experienced dogs that just seem to know how to do it before I train it. It really is something else I think that temperament traits seem to be pretty predictable, I think that you can take a lot of the "gamble" out of the equation by intimately knowing the first few generations.

I am guessing that you are mostly refering to the "talents" needed for a great agility dog? While I don't think you are going to find a GSD that naturally is a rockstar at weaving or has that "instinct" on how exactly to follow handling maneuvers, jumping tight etc (I think you could find this in border collie lines that are super successful at agility, just like you would find it in herding) but you could definitely find some very important traits that would cross over from IPO which GSDs tend to have a "talent/instinct" for. Things like capping, clear headedness, speed with precision etc are all things that are clearly obvious in an IPO dog (if your looking) and are essential for a good agility team. If my next agility dog is going to be another GSD these are some of the things that I will be looking closely at. (Overall health and the structure capable of being at the top in agility is a whole nother topic!)

[Andaka]

I think that herding, while an instinct in itself, is also a show of genetic obedience. This is a trait that is useful in agility. Then you spend the time teaching the puppy that the most fun in the world is to "play" with you -- whatever the "game" is.

[onyx'girl]

Now I have Kira - I was pretty much ready to throw in the towel after Kessy, but it just worked out perfectly that I could take Kira and title her. I held my breath a little til her teeth came in normally, and then until we had her hips/elbows checked out...they were just done yesterday, but they look great.
Plus she's working out really nicely as a tending dog - and she's gorgeous - so maybe things have finally worked out for me.

I am looking forward to hear who is chosen to sire Kira's first litter, and am excited to read about her and her progeny's future!

Originally Posted by lhczth

You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, some dogs are worked and developed to like doing bitework, but the good ones were born that way. All training does is let these dogs know that they must do what they genetically are programed to do by our rules. I think you can see the same in the really good agility dogs. They love the excitement of the sport and all you have to do is show them the rules. Believe me, Marcia never had to motivate Navarre to run agility. HE LOVED it and still does. Next to bitework it is his favorite things to do.

Read Ellen Nicklesberg's articles about working with shepherd Manfred Hyne and his dogs. They needed no motivation to work sheep. They were genetically programmed to do the work. He just needed to guide them and show them the rules.

German Shepherd Herding

You saw Deja at the breed survey? That is genetics. All I have had to do was teach her the rules and reinforce what I want and don't want (we are still working on that part LOL). The motivation is the work, the fight. No rag play, back tying to create drive or to get a desire to bite a rag or sleeve.

This is what many people don't understand (you are not the only one). Good working dogs are motivated by the work. It is genetic.

Originally Posted by wildo

Hmmm. Very interesting, Lisa! I guess I didn't realize that. The work I've done with Pimg has all been in motivating and training the desire for work. That's my only experience... Geez- working dogs must be so easy!! (just kidding... kind of.)

I see the difference in a dog with genetic obedience, genetic drives for doing what is asked and know what a blessing it is! And really, working dogs are easier, because they truly want to please and work! The rule/re-enforcement guideline is key however.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by KristiM

I am guessing that you are mostly refering to the "talents" needed for a great agility dog?

I think a lot of dogs show what my friends and I call "obstacle drive". I have no idea if this phrase is used in the agility world or not. What it means is, if you release the dog on a course he will just start doing obstacles without direction or being commanded or lured by any rewards (food or toys). When I do agility with Nikon, a lot of times I don't have any rewards on or near me because they actually distract him. He just loves doing agility for the sake of it, he loves every single one of the obstacles (tunnel and A-frame being the favorites). We do flyball in a large facility with a trial-sized agility area and if I'm not paying attention, Nikon will wander off and start playing on obstacles.

[KristiM]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I think a lot of dogs show what my friends and I call "obstacle drive". I have no idea if this phrase is used in the agility world or not. What it means is, if you release the dog on a course he will just start doing obstacles without direction or being commanded or lured by any rewards (food or toys). When I do agility with Nikon, a lot of times I don't have any rewards on or near me because they actually distract him. He just loves doing agility for the sake of it, he loves every single one of the obstacles (tunnel and A-frame being the favorites). We do flyball in a large facility with a trial-sized agility area and if I'm not paying attention, Nikon will wander off and start playing on obstacles.

That's definitely part of it, agility is an incredibly complex sport once you really get into it. You certainly can do well with almost any dog in agility but to be really competitive you need a special dog (and more importantly a talented handler!) You can teach any dog to have obstacle drive just by creating value for that piece of equipment using lots of reward. But to have GSD that is capable of beating a border collie "at their game" you need some special talents!I have seen some border collies that really just seem to "know" complex aspects of agility without really being taught, they pick up things like weaving, super contacts, collection, tight turns and jumping like they already knew how to do it. There is no other explanation than genetics, just like a lot of GSDs just "know" how to do schutzhund, all you do is guide and refine the behaviours that are already there. I think that there are several behaviours from schutzhund that transfer well to agility, so in searching for a GSD that will be competitive in agility I think there really isn't much of a gamble when it comes to temperament and working ability suitable for high level competition.

I personally think that where it becomes more of a gamble is finding a GSD that is physically capable of high level competition and is healthy enough to have good longevity in the sport.

[JakodaCD OA]

I don't think you can train any dog to "like" whatever sport intended.

If they aren't into it, they just aren't going to do well no matter how much training.

My rescue gsd, we sort of fell into agility, and she loved it, you could tell she loved it. Obedience was boring for her, she did it, but she wasn't 'into' it.

Masi, I wanted to do agility with, but it was rather obvious early on, she just wasn't into it, sure she'll do the obstacles, but it's just something I can tell, she would rather be doing something else.

Put her tracking harness on, and she is raring to go, no stopping her..THAT is what she loves and does well at (even tho we haven't tested for it)..and obedience, she likes obedience

Aussie same thing, agility "ahh forgettaboutit", throw some sheep on the field and she is OFF the charts..

As for a gamble, I agree anything in life can be a gamble, I DO agree an older , even 6month + green dog can be a better bet than an 8 week old when having something specific in mind.

I'm sure alot of things come into play when it comes to a dog excelling at something, but I do believe, a dog will excell at "whatever" when the dog loves to do it. If the dog loves it, it is soooo much easier to work with, a pleasure to watch and a pleasure to 'play' with.

I also agree with Kristi, finding a gsd that is capable of high level agility competition is far and few in between, as well as having the longevity for it.

[3dognite]

We've purchased 3 different breeds from 3 different breeders, all well-researched. I wouldn't say that it's a gamble doing it that way other than the fact that sometimes life just weird and weird things happen.

The closest we came to having it not work is with my GSD. He's Schutzhund, high drive and I really wasn't as prepared for that as I should have been, especially having a third puppy in as many years. He challenged me extensively and there were months where I wasn't sure I'd made the right decision.