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Old 12-14-2012, 10:35 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I gues I wonder how you determine whether someone has any business doing something-and if a dog doesn't have titles that means the owner doesn't care-nope not even a little bit-
That's not what I said. I said that someone who breeds a dog just because they think it's a good dog, without any outside evaluation isn't bettering the breed. And someone who puts the amount of time and money into training/titling as a means of proof for breeding purposes shows dedication and that they truly care.

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Then I guess we should just trust everybody who has a "healthy" dog that tells us that their dog has an "upstanding temperament", right? There's definitely no need for outside evaluation through some sort of breed testing association, right? I love my dog and I think he has a great temperament. I think he's "the best" at being a normal pet dog. Plus he's healthy, so I should just breed him now, right?

Agility titles, Schutzhund titles, herding titles...they all take extensive training. A CGC does not. They aren't even comparable. Somebody who cares enough to prove their dog's worth and put all the time and money into the training is someone who actually gives a crap about bettering the breed, and may just end up with a dog worth breeding. Someone who just says "Hey, my dog is really sweet and doesn't have hip dysplasia," definitely has no business doing it.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:57 AM   #22 (permalink)
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We have had this argument over and over and over. Not sure why someone felt the need to hi-jack the OP's thread to argue especially from people who own poorly bred dogs from BYB.

Here is my opinion....

I like to see titles because it gives some sense of what the dogs are capable of. That is one piece of the puzzle. If there are no titles, are they working dogs? A breeder can breed dog, never title any but the dogs are bred to work and are proven to work. I want to hear more from the breeder other than "my dog has a great personality and can hold down a couch like no other while kissing your nose". But again...it's only one piece to the puzzle.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:58 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I have never understood this idea that the parents must be titled to be bred. Do you consider a CGC a title? What about agility titles?
No, I don't believe CGC was ever intended to be seen as a title and, unless they beef up the requirements to get the certificate, I don't believe it should be. That is just my opinion and I am well aware of the fact that AKC is making it a "title" next year.

When I say that there should be "Training the dogs and competing them in some venue that provides an objective opinion on their quality", I meant just that. Yes, an agility title is a title. And obedience title is a title. A conformation championship is a "title". A successful working dog has a "title" just by the fact of doing the work day in and day out and being good at it. A herding title is also a valid performance based assessment of a dog's skill in that area. A schutzhund title counts as well (although I have seen my fair share of ScH I imported bitches that make me question the validity of their title). It doesn't matter where it comes from, as long as it is valid and it came from an objective third party. Something that says that animal excels at that activity

The fact that I believe there are many valid titles a dog can win that would help prove that dog's worthiness to reproduce should be evident in the fact that I never used the word "schutzhund" in any of my comments. Saying "some venue" means just that.

Without an objective opinion from a knowledgeable person, a judge who matches performance to a preconceived set of criteria, a dog's ability would only be based on what the owner/breeder says it is. This dog is a herder that doesn't stop? Prove it. Show me the dog working or show me the proof the dog meets certain performance criteria (a "title"). Same with any other activity. A title is nothing more than proof that the owner/ breeder can walk the talk.

You say this dog has perfect conformation? Prove it with someone's objective opinion. You say this dog has good hips and normal elbows? Let me see the objective opinion of someone who is charged with making the professional call.

I can say whatever I want about my dog. Saying it, without being able to back it up with performance, means nothing.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:15 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I'm sure the sheep herders in Germany chose the dogs that did the best job herding, not the dogs that did the best job biting a sleeve on someone's arm.
Again, you are confusing "title" with "schutzhund". They are not mutually inclusive. A title can be in schutzhund. Of course it can, obviously. But a title can ALSO be in many other venues, not just schutzhund.

A sheep herder in Germany is NOT going to keep a dog that doesn't work. So the very fact that the dog is continuing to work is a "title" of sorts. After all, the sheep herder is trusting his livelihood to the dog's working ability. That is a "title of trust", don't you think? Not to mention that at least some of those working dogs might also be trialed for the fun of it.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:16 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Great posts, Sheilah!
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:28 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I agree with all of you and greatly appreciate all the feedback.
I am so glad that I found this forum.

We are going to hold and do more research and visit more kennels before making this huge decision.

Thank you so much,
Good choice. Please study all you can in the meantime and don't be afraid to ask this board's opinion of a breeder. We can't "breeder bash" but we can PM and we can give personal experiences (at times).

Carmen noted and mentioned this particular breeder's dogs, and I agree, a few of those photos really show that the male in particular has something weird going on with his stance and body.

People will "poo poo" at times, conformation showing/titling, but what good conformation does for a dog is give it the ability to move and grow without defects. Poor conformation can lead to joint issues as the dog grows and ages. So dogs that are conformationally correct are less likely to have hip and elbow issues, and other abnormalities and injuries that can occur.
A "straight back" for instance, isn't necessarily good thing, it could potentially be detrimental do the dog's movement and performance.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:28 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm sure the sheep herders in Germany chose the dogs that did the best job herding, not the dogs that did the best job biting a sleeve on someone's arm.
Oh, and for the record, there's quite a bit more that goes into a Schutzhund title than "biting a sleeve on someone's arm."


Lol, if it were only that easy..
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:32 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Well I wonder if I should make a new post now that we are back to square 1.

We want to look at a few breeders in FL or GA. Any recommendations will be great, if it has to be a PM that will work too.

I guess it would be great to hear from someone who already has a puppy/dog from a Kennel they recommend.

I am new to the forum and learning my way around it, I will search previous posts as well.

Thanks everyone!
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:51 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Neko View Post
Well I wonder if I should make a new post now that we are back to square 1.

We want to look at a few breeders in FL or GA. Any recommendations will be great, if it has to be a PM that will work too.

I guess it would be great to hear from someone who already has a puppy/dog from a Kennel they recommend.

I am new to the forum and learning my way around it, I will search previous posts as well.

Thanks everyone!
An agility friend of mine just had a litter (they are in GA). I think he said they MAY have one or two available. I love his dogs! They have great temperament and working ability. If I was looking for a puppy, I'd get one from him in a heartbeat
I don't see the litter on their website, but the site has their contact info as well as info on the dogs (the dam is Fraulein (schutzhund titled dog), not sure which sire-if it's their dog Extreme, he is just awesome (agility dog, just got his MACH-agility champion title)!:
Vom KiaHaus - Home

I have also heard great things about Betty (Little River Canine) in Florida.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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FIRST get proof of hips/elbow certification. This is absolute minimum!!! Also remember almost all dogs are confident and stable on home territory, ask t see the parents elsewhere. This is one of the reason people work/train their dogs. All dogs listen at home with no outside pressure. Take the dog out and see if passing animals are safe, how it is with kids, bikes, loud unexpected noises. Nothing worse than rearing and loving a dog who is afraid of thunder, kids, dogs, etc...Good luck, there are great dogs in all types, but you must do your research. Remember this will be family for 10+ years, adn you must live with it, so put in the research!!!
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