Looking for a King Shephard

[Mary Beth]

Originally Posted by rena

Well I contacted a shelley watts who lives in the states. She has a puppy available but when i asked the price it was about 3500. From the research I did they average 1800 to the max of 3500 if you choose to get one that will be for show and you want to breed them so you do not get them fixed. No contract was mentioned.

I think she is reputable. I do not know. She sent me pics of the pup. Said the father is larger than normal at 150 and the mom is about 100 or so. I saw the pup and it seemed the same size as my average sized shepherd when he was that age at 8 weeks.

I need to know what to be careful for what to look out for, and if shelley watts is legit. She seems to be.

Here's what I would do if I were you. First off, what is the OFA (and I would check this on their website) for the puppy's parents? No OFA, no sale Second, is the parentage cleared for DM (again you can check this out on the OFA site) - no DM - no sale. Third, what is her health guarantee? I would want a minimum 1 year on congential disorders, 2 years on hips/elbows. Fourth, any other guarantees? Like ears stand up, size (since that is important to you). Fifth - will she take the puppy/dog back if you can't keep it ? Sixth - what is the temperament of this puppy - has she tested it - will it fit into your lifestyle?

Here's a size guideline, now my Sting is a purebred GSD, but at 9 weeks he was 23 lbs. - as an adult 130 lbs. 32 inches high at the shoulder. So ask the weight of the puppy. If you are interested in a big dog, you may want to also consider the Leonberger.

[qbchottu]

Yoschi's_Pet_Human:
Your argument is flawed. YOUR particular purebred GSD has one testicle so you cannot show or breed -this happens all the time and is an unfortunate result when one wants to breed/show. What is your guarantee? If you paid for a show pup - you should get a replacement or whatever is specified by your contract. If you specifically paid for a show/breed puppy, this should have been an essential criteria when you agreed to the contract. This is YOUR particular issue and not a way to reason/excuse exorbitant prices for mutts.

Purebred showlines out of titled/koered parents WILL cost that much - it is commonplace. But to charge premium prices for mixed breeds that you can find at your local shelter and then to justify breeding/showing a mixed breed? I can't understand that. Same goes for your goldendoodle - I see these regularly at shelters for about 200$ adoption fee. I love my mutts - have 3 in the home now - 2 fosters and a Golden X that is mine. I love her to bits, but I would have a hard time containing my amusement if you wanted to charge me 1k+ for her - she's cute, but those prices for mixed dogs? Wow...

As I added to the other post: TO EACH HIS OWN. The price is whatever the market will bear - if there is a market for oversized mixed breeds, then that is perfectly justifiable for Shelley to charge that for her dogs. If there are people buying it, why not charge it? The breeder sets her prices accordingly because the MARKET will bear it. Would I buy it? No, but what I buy and support is different than what you buy and support. TO EACH HIS OWN. However, when you go to a public board and ask for advice on the breeding/prices, I will give OP my opinion because OP asked for it.

Designer mixed breeds (shi-pom, goodledoodle, labdoodle, king, cockapoo or whatever silly hybrid name they come up with) are just that: mixed breeds. They have no breed standard, organization, and limited to very recent history. They seem to be all the rage these days so the market prices have skyrocketed for these dogs. Golden oodles or poodle retrievers were the fashion a few years back - I have recently heard from more than one Golden/lab breeder that they NO longer do this because there is no longer a market for these dogs. Market no longer demands these dogs - prices have decreased and this designer mix is no longer done as much (at least in my experience and what I've heard).

5 min search on petfinder:

Goldendoodles:
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Mchenry, IL | IL - Bailie
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Marion, IN | DUKE
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Decatur, IL | IL - Clooney
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Wellston, MI | MI - Zoey
http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/NJ656.html There is even a oodle doodle rescue just for these mixes!

Sled dog + GSD mix aka Kings:
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Alaskan Malamute | Muskegon, MI | Shayna
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Alaskan Malamute | Kalamazoo, MI | Prancer
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Alaskan Malamute | Barrington Hills, IL | Nuka
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Orland, IN | 'Kota'
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Alaskan Malamute | Belleville, IL | Morgan, Mandy, Maple
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Stover, MO | BEBE

If oversized is the siren call to the King, there are plenty of dogs over standard:
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Urbana, IL | Sam
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Indianapolis, IN | Bear
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Indianapolis, IN | Aries and Gracie
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Indianapolis, IN | Alberto (Full Blooded)
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Livonia, MI | Lance
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Huntingburg, IN | Kodiak
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Glendale, MO | Jethro-Puppies for Parole

This is not to push you into a rescue, but here is my point: if you just want a mixed breed dog that is oversized and has a soft temperament for the home, there are plenty of these in the shelter. These dogs cannot be registered with any national breed organization, they cannot show, most have very minimal titles/ratings (if at all), genetics/mix is variable because you are mixing genetics of two completely different breeds, very little history on health certs (go look at OFA site for King sheps - there are a handful listed)...so my question is: why pay premium prices for dogs that have not and cannot be proved/judged in any public platform or venue? We push everyone (even those looking for pure GSDs) to consider and evaluate the breeder based on their history, accomplishment with the breed, and how/if they are judged in a PUBLIC relatively unbiased venue. Shelley calls her breedings the "top" King Shepherds, but shows her own dogs in the club that she founded and is the president of....conflict of interest much?

Anyway....to each his own!

[qbchottu]

And no, mutts are NOT healthier. Out of the three mutts in my house at the moment: 2 have terrible allergies that require daily meds and one has severe temperament issues exacerbated by chronic ear infections. It is a common myth that mutts don't have the same issues as purebreds and this is certainly not something to hang your hat on when purchasing mixed dogs for premium prices.

[Yoschi's_Pet_Human]

Originally Posted by Freestep

Why did you pay that much for a mixed-breed? I know people do it all the time, but it always mystifies me. Maybe you can help me "get it"... I know some working dogs are crossbred for a purpose, such as LGDs, herding dogs, sled dogs, etc., and that makes sense... but just for a pet?

I have to say, having worked with dogs for 20+ years, that mixed-breed dogs are NOT necessarily healthier. They get allergies, hip dysplasia, mange cancer, etc. etc. etc. just like purebreds do. There are some diseases and anomalities that are specific to certain breeds, especially those with a small gene pool, but aside from that, mixed-breeds can suffer from just about anything that a purebred does.

I have a client who spent something like $1500 for a "toy cockapoo" over the internet. The dog is a mess. Allergies so bad the dog has to be kept on prednisone. The breeder promised the dog wouldn't get over 10 pounds, but I think she's about 20 or 25. Overweight because of the prednisone, but still roughtly twice the size than what was promised.

Just like any dog... you investigate the breeder and look at prior litters,,, we saw the most beautiful goldendoodle at the park... they gave us their breeder's number and we did additional research as well... mixed breeds are less likely to get genetic disorders that are caused by crossbreeding.... not guaranteed, nevertheless. As for price, we live in a market economy. $1200 is the going rate for quality full sized goldendoodles from reputable breeders.

[Yoschi's_Pet_Human]

Just like everything people want... some things simply cost more regardless of what would seem "right" ... I am in the koi hobby and show koi competitively... my wife will never, ever understand why I am willing to save for months to buy a fish... she can't see the difference between two similarly marked fish, but one is worth $75 and the other worth $5000... a person has to decide how much they want something .. if you're ok with a scrawny goldendoodle then you can get one for $500... but for a healthy large bodied goldendoodle from a proven breeder, the prices start at $1000. C'est la vie
Recessive gene issues are definitely reduced with mixed breeds

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Freestep

... I know some working dogs are crossbred for a purpose, such as LGDs, herding dogs, sled dogs, etc., and that makes sense... but just for a pet?

And the ones that are, are not $1000+. I do flyball and the Border Staffies, Border Jacks, and Border Whippets rule but they are nowhere near the prices people are paying for Doodles and whatever-poos. People are mostly breeding them for their own teams and programs, not to supply a demand or make money. I was interested in getting a Border Staffy from someone who really knows her stuff (and she has thought through generations of the pedigree, no different than any good purebred breeder) and was told I'd probably wait two years so I got a free rescue JRT instead.

[rena]

I think its because her dogs seem to be the largest that they cost the most. I have yet to find a site where dogs are at least 125 plus pounds. They are average as to what i can get up here.
I would expect that at this price it NOT be neutered. If i choose to breed with another large shepherd, at that price I should be able to. Though it says on the website that I will not receive the papers, whatever those are, if i do not.
I just don't want to breed. Im just a person who likes large shepherds.

I want a pup NOT a dog so i will not be getting a rescue. Great for those who do this kind act but it is not for me.

I need some links please. All the sites I'm getting they are 90 pound shepherds.

[Yoschi's_Pet_Human]

Unlike a lot of doodles... goldendoodles were specifically bred for a working purpose,,, that being service dogs for people with allergies. The goldendoodle is a great combination of temperament, intelligence, aesthetics and the practicality of minimal shedding ... that being said... we bought him simply because my wife thought they were cute...

[qbchottu]

Why is size your one and only concern?

If you are so keen to get an extra large dog, look to the breeds that are bred and standardized for larger sizes.
Large breeds:
Leonberger
English Mastiff
Malamutes
Rotties
Russian Terriers
Great Pyrenees
Great Dane
Saint Bernard
Newfies
Irish Wolfhound
Bernese Mountain Dog

I would expect that at this price it NOT be neutered. If i choose to breed with another large shepherd, at that price I should be able to.

A high purchase price does NOT justify breeding the animal. There are plenty of pricey animals that should NOT be bred. Shelley has specified that any animals sold for breeding will be done so with GREAT discretion - pets are sold on a condition that they are not bred. You are now advocating and hinting that you will not respect the breeder's wishes and go on to do as you like. When you give your word, keep it. If you do not like the breeder's stipulations, do not buy from them. But to be dishonest and go against the specified contract does not show integrity or honesty on your part.
King Shepherd Puppies
"*All Puppies go to their new homes on a STRICT SPAY NEUTER CONTRACT, to protect the integrity of our breeding. When a new owner furnishes the proper proof of Spaying or Neutering their puppy, Chateau De Chief will then provide the new owner with their American King Shepherd Club, Inc. (AKSC, Inc.) registration papers. Only under the most preternatural circumstances, will we even consider placing a puppy with breeding rights that will be under the very strict rules and regulations of the breeder."

Most, if not all, the people on this forum will not recommend breeders that breed solely for size.

The King Shepherd is NOT a German Shepherd. It is a mix of GSD, Great Pyrenees, Malamutes and who knows what else. Shelley charges those prices because she can - not due to her dogs being the largest. She is also a "founder" of the breed so she can probably charge higher prices due to a customer base, demand, and history.

[martemchik]

People on this forum are really not going to do the research for you when it comes to large shepherds. The reason these breeders don't want you to breed their dogs is because they want to keep the supply of dogs down so that they can charge these kinds of prices. You want something special, they're the only ones that have it, you're going to pay a premium. If they allow you to start doing the same thing, then there is more supply in the market and the price for that dog goes down.

Goldendoodle's are actually not bred for a purpose any more except for being "cute." The vast majority of breeders have never in their life produced a single working/service dog and the ones that are service/working dogs come from organizations that have their own breeding programs and do not sell their puppies to the public. Although in general they are more hypoallergenic than a lab or golden retriever, they still produce enough dander, saliva, and hair for people with allergies to react to. There is an interesting article about the guy that "invented" the breed in which he says its the worst thing he's ever done. He tried to get a litter of dogs for ONE customer that was super allergic. They tested 10 puppies, and out of 10 he was only not allergic to 3 of them. They used one of those three for him. The rumor spread that these dogs wouldn't affect people with allergies, but its false, the majority of them will still react.

Mixed-breeds are also not healthier than purebreds. They get all the same genetic material that purebreds do from their PUREBRED parents. The only reason people think they are healthier is because there is no club or registry keeping track of the health statistics. Genetics don't work like we wish they did. If both parents have a hidden "bad" gene, the puppies have a chance of getting that problem. Just because you mix two breeds doesn't mean the "stronger" or "healthier" gene is going to win out.