Big red flags on the Breeder we got our dog from?

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

Many x-rays that look bad aren't even sent in but are diagnosed by the vet. And OFA is only one of many certifying bodies, though it is certainly the most commonly used in the US. I would guess in reality the percentage is probably a bit higher.

I would guess the real percentage is a LOT higher, because I think most films that show dysplasia don't get sent into OFA.

Think about it... if the xrays clearly show dysplasia, and both you and your vet agree when looking at them, what's the point of spending the extra money to send them to OFA? You're not going to get an OFA number, if you were thinking about breeding, you probably aren't anymore, and what is OFA going to tell you that you don't already know? I would bet that many, if not most people do not send in their films in this case.

The only reason I would submit such a film to OFA is if the hips looked borderline. In that case, I would want more veterinarians to take a look and make a definitive decision.

[Liesje]

GrammaD how do you feel about ZW scores? They are calculated based on parentage, progeny, and siblings.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Freestep

I would guess the real percentage is a LOT higher, because I think most films that show dysplasia don't get sent into OFA.

Think about it... if the xrays clearly show dysplasia, and both you and your vet agree when looking at them, what's the point of spending the extra money to send them to OFA? You're not going to get an OFA number, if you were thinking about breeding, you probably aren't anymore, and what is OFA going to tell you that you don't already know? I would bet that many, if not most people do not send in their films in this case.

The only reason I would submit such a film to OFA is if the hips looked borderline. In that case, I would want more veterinarians to take a look and make a definitive decision.

I think you are right about the % being higher but I do know that some people will send in dysplastic hips because in order to make good on the breeder's warranty they need an "official" rating, so that is one reason why someone might knowingly send in the x-rays. Or maybe they are pissed at the breeder and want to prove the dog has a problem I'm just speculating (neither has happened to me).

[selzer]

Actually, on my hip/elbow guaranty, I require that the diagnosis be made by x-ray and then sent to the OFA. If I am going to replace a puppy, then I want to have more than some yayhoo saying the hips look boxy and they probably have mild HD in both hips. So that MIGHT be a reason why someone might send in films that look bad.

What do other breeders here do, in the event of hip/elbow dysplasia, to ensure that it was made by x-ray, and good films were taken and a proper diagnosis made?

I don't require that the dog be returned, but they must provide documentation that they had the dog altered.

Uhg, Liesje, I must have been typing this at the same time.

[Catu]

79.26% of percentages cited on web forums are invented, it's a fact

[GrammaD]

Originally Posted by Liesje

GrammaD how do you feel about ZW scores? They are calculated based on parentage, progeny, and siblings.

I like concept of the breed value system and in my pie in the sky dream world we'd utilize PennHip in the process.

But can you even imagine breeders in the US submitting to this level of regulation? And what it would take to gear up PennHip to handle the volume?

I am not in the know enough to know whether the past decade + of ZW has reduced the incidence of HD- do you know?

[cliffson1]

HELLO, these hip/elbow issues are important, but first you have to have an accurate understanding of the issue to determine what you will live with in making breeding decisions.

[carmspack]

I was going through some of the "antique" German Shepherd dog Reviews I am sending to Bethany and discovered an article in one of the late 70's issues , written by Gary Schnelle , who you may recognize as one of the early OFA orthopedic specialists who promoted the x-ray and evaluation scheme. Gary Schnelle actually "discovered" hip problems in the 1940's when x-ray technology became available http://www.belfield.com/pet_health_art5.php

He said many things among which is that hips are only one consideration . A dog with excellent hips and poor temperament is a worse choice then a dog with borderline hips and ideal temperament (paraphrased). He said that a dog with exellent hips being the only representative with this grade , the littermates, sire and dam being in the suspicious to frank dysplastic range is a worse choice (looks good on paper though!) than a dog with fair (which is not dysplastic but a rating of hips which will pass ofa cert) and suspicious (borderline) but with nothing beyond that in the "kin" . You have to look at pedigree depth , not the individual .
He also said there are more dogs euthanized for temperamental problems then need be for hips. The Reviews are interesting in a historical way because month by month you can see the issue of hips being tackled and x-raying being proposed as a useful tool in breeding selection.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by GrammaD

I like concept of the breed value system and in my pie in the sky dream world we'd utilize PennHip in the process.

But can you even imagine breeders in the US submitting to this level of regulation? And what it would take to gear up PennHip to handle the volume?

I am not in the know enough to know whether the past decade + of ZW has reduced the incidence of HD- do you know?

No idea on the last question, but a lot of people in the US do use it. The dog I just sold has a ZW score (his own, not just the average of the parents) because I submitted his x-rays to the SV. I would like to send in my other dog but right now it's cost-prohibitive (getting *another* set of x-rays done plus the cost of the a-stamp which is like $130 plus being without his papers for another 3 months) so I'm watching the scores of his relatives and how they are producing.

[GrammaD]

$$$$ *sigh*

I really don't know how good breeders do it.