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Old 12-10-2012, 05:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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To me, not getting the papers would be a huge red flag unless I knew the breeder personally and saw them on a regular basis, and even then...questionable. If I'm paying $1000+ for a puppy, that paperwork better be filed and in my hands the day I give any kind of payment (barring some huge misunderstanding or life event). From conception, to whelping, to releasing the puppies is about a 4 month period and sorry if the breeder can't find 30 minutes in that 4 months to fill out some paperwork, I wouldn't even consider the puppy. Also really weird that the dam wasn't on site and you couldn't see her. I know some people like to work their dogs and might have them in trials or whatever, but I have a hard time believing a breeder couldn't wait to show/trial a female that just had puppies 8 weeks ago (I can guarantee that dog isn't in breed ring condition).

Does your contract state that the dog comes with AKC (or another club) registration? Do you have copies of the dam's/sire's AKC pedigrees (not all breeders provide this but its nice)? If you do have that much contact with the breeder, I wouldn't be worried quite yet. But if they end up going silent one day, I wouldn't hold my breath for the registration.
Just want to point out a few things.

1. You cannot register a litter until there is a litter to register, so that knocks it down to 8 weeks, and yes, there is plenty of time for a normal litter to be registered in that time. Even if you are using an outside stud, so long as you paid the stud fee, the stud owner will usually send out her approval by e-mail as soon as she gets it. No problems.

2. I don't register until the puppies are about a week old, that way I know how many I will have, etc. Still plenty of time.

3. If you are dealing with an import or a dog from a different allowable registry, things take longer. A LOT longer. I started the minute my bitch was shipped in, and the papers were not ready by the time Cupcake was 8 weeks old. It wasn't a big deal though, as she went to someone familiar with the system. And she had the papers before they were needed.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #32 (permalink)
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The puppy was pretty underweight and he's now on a lot of meds to get that all sorted. Still has diarrhea.
This alonewould be a red flag for me.

Sick puppy plus no meeting the dam plus no papers plus no contract on what she considers a breeding potential puppy?

Last edited by GrammaD; 12-10-2012 at 05:20 PM. Reason: correct a mistake
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:21 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I see red flags no one is mentioning...No where has he said he has the registered name and number of the mom!!!! No where has he got a pedigree!!! No where does he say he has proof of hips/elbows certified!!! He never met mom who could be a serious spook or vicious dog.

What he has is a sick, under weight pup from a mom he didn't meet, has no idea of her name or if she has hip/elbow issues!!! He has nothing written saying who the sire is for sure nor a pedigree to prove anything. I'm sorry but you got taken, you have supported a BYB and probably bought yourself a lovable dog with potential for many health issues and maybe temperment problems.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:43 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I see red flags no one is mentioning...No where has he said he has the registered name and number of the mom!!!! No where has he got a pedigree!!! No where does he say he has proof of hips/elbows certified!!! He never met mom who could be a serious spook or vicious dog.

What he has is a sick, under weight pup from a mom he didn't meet, has no idea of her name or if she has hip/elbow issues!!! He has nothing written saying who the sire is for sure nor a pedigree to prove anything. I'm sorry but you got taken, you have supported a BYB and probably bought yourself a lovable dog with potential for many health issues and maybe temperment problems.
Yes this is our fear.

You are right. All I have is the Sire and Grandfathers name (supposedly). I have nothing on the mother, except the first name, which could easily be made up.

I am sure that you guys here understand that some of us just want a good dog, and we're willing to pay for it. It's sad that an industry that is supposed to be built on such trust has it's own predators. Should that end up being the case. If so, you all will be the first to hear who it is.

Given the knowledge I have of this particular breeder and their businesses, it would be unwise for them to screw me over. I'm one of those people who does not take things like this lying down. I have funds, and the determination to make things uncomfortable. I already have that plan worked out, as this seems to feel more and more like it's going to be a disappointment.



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Old 12-10-2012, 05:44 PM   #35 (permalink)
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3. If you are dealing with an import or a dog from a different allowable registry, things take longer. A LOT longer. I started the minute my bitch was shipped in, and the papers were not ready by the time Cupcake was 8 weeks old. It wasn't a big deal though, as she went to someone familiar with the system. And she had the papers before they were needed.
Yeah I know some things happen, that's why I said barring some big misunderstanding or life event. I know sometimes there are hick-ups, but if I was considering a breeder they better tell me about a hick-up up front and not just tell me "its in the mail."

That's the issue of paying $1000+ for a product. Unless I completely trust the breeder, I better have everything my product is supposed to come with when I give the breeder the money. Like in your case, if I was looking for an "import" puppy, found myself in that kind of situation, I'd understand if it took longer due to the whole process. I also remember you telling the story and I'm sure you told it exactly the same way to the buyer that you told us all on the forum. But if say you just said, well she's imported so it will take longer, they papers will be in the mail when I get them, I wouldn't really accept that.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:45 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Yes this is our fear. Given the knowledge I have of this particular breeder and their businesses, it would be unwise for them to screw me over. I'm one of those people who does not take things like this lying down. I already have that plan worked out, as this seems to feel more and more like it's going to be a disappointment.)
What does your contract say? Do you even have a contract?
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:45 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I noticed where you said you wanted to show this dog and then she wanted to use him for breeding? Do you mean in Conformation? Did you get any guarantees that this is a show potential pup? Was the sire or dam shown? Are they champions?
Years ago, in the stone age, when you had to mail AKC paperwork for registering litters it took about a month to 6 weeks. I would always get litter registrations in the mail when babies were about a week old, that way I knew I would have the individual papers when babies were 8-9 weeks old when they left. This gave me plenty of time for mailing paperwork across the country to AKC, down time while paperwork was being done, then mailed back to me. I always had paperwork to go with babies, including copies of OFA paperwork and titles on the sire and dam, vet check paperwork on individual puppies. This was all sent with the new baby when it left my home, along with my contract signed by both myself and the new family.
It makes me a bit concerned that you never saw the dam at all. Where was she when you went to pick your puppy? Or was puppy sent to you by plane? What excuse did the breeder use to not let you see the dam?. Did she show you OFA paperwork on sire and dam?
I know folks are busy these days, but since litters can be done online now, it only takes a few minutes to fill out and get sent to AKC, all done on computer. Doesn't have to even be done during business hours, can be done anytime. I can't imagine a breeder had NO time to register this litter in the last 8 weeks. That would concern me a bit. Also, if she gives the puppies shots, does that mean they never had a vet check at all? I gave my own shots, but puppies still went to vet and had a check up before going to their new homes.
I would be concerned that you might not be getting papers or at least AKC papers. Maybe this breeder does one of the "pretend" registries, which I am told takes longer to process. Continental Kennel Club is one used by many breeders now, especially in pet shops, because you can register a litter of puppies without the sire or dam being registered. Some breeders claim "ckc" papers, but these are not legimate Canadian Kennel Club papers, but Continental Kennel Club papers.
I hope this turns out well for you, but I see so many red flags...
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:07 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I am sure that you guys here understand that some of us just want a good dog, and we're willing to pay for it. It's sad that an industry that is supposed to be built on such trust has it's own predators. Should that end up being the case. If so, you all will be the first to hear who it is.
I don't know where you think the industry is built on trust, ever heard of puppy mills?? puppy brokers? BYB? It is an industry of buyer beware, as all industries are, Everyone should insist on proof of things first, not buy and then question, that is how the unscrupulous breeders stay in business. Good breeders ask you to fill in a questionaire, they check YOU out and offer proof of all papers/certificates, etc.. They are PROUD of their dogs and what they produce. They show off moms, dads, siblings, relatives, wins, titles, etc.. You won't get away without a large envelope of info, pics, copies of parents papers or registration numbers, OFA records, Titles,

You should take this pup back, demand your $$$, and do your research first before signing the check. It might be hard to believe you have been taken but ask yourself why didn't you get a healthy pup? why didn't you meet mom? why don't you have copies of papers and titles and the parents health certificates? When you answer these questions you will then have to acknowledge you have been taken...He will be a good pet for someone maybe, but not a show dog for anyone and may not even ever healthy,

Truth hurts and I am sorry, try sharing the info, do your checks first, ask teh right questions and don't be so quick to take the first deal you come across.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:09 PM   #39 (permalink)
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There seems to be a lot more important red flags than papers in this case. If the question is soley papers, then I wouldn't be concerned at all. Not really. Yes, I would want them, but if they told me they would send them in x number of days, I really wouldn't worry.

As Trudy mentioned, not having the dam present or available, no contract, no pedigrees, no discussion on the health screenings, sick pup. Papers are important, but really not so. Not unless you are showing or breeding the dog, and I kind of link those together. Otherwise the papers really don't mean anything much whatsoever.

What we have here is a person who had a suspicion about the breeder, doesn't like what he saw, but bought the puppy anyway, and now is worried about what? About the paperwork. Why? Is this a young breeding prospect? If it is a young breeding propsect then all that other crap, who the dam is, what are the health screenings, what the dam is like, is even more important. Really.

Bottom line is, if you don't like something about a breeder, don't buy a puppy from them. Don't expect to catch it up later with some type of revenge. The paperwork should have been ready, but it sounds like the breeder has some weird schedule, possibly to ensure checks clear, who knows, and just didn't want to say she doesn't know you from Adam, and is letting you pay by check, but isn't going to give you papers until she sees everything clear in the bank.

And with CCs it is even worse, because people can cancel payments. Or, she has a period for which she will take the pup back and does not want to go through the hassle of getting more paperwork in the event the pup is returned. As I said, I had to one time, and it was a big enough pain, that I really don't want to again.

I guess, if you already have the puppy, why not wait until the date that she assured you the paperwork would be provided, and if it is not come on with a big "I JUST KNEW IT!"

The thing is, AKC paperwork is really not all that hard to procure. You do not need titled dogs or champion dogs, or even dogs that look like a good representative of the breed for the dog to be registered, and if it is registered, it can produce registered puppies. There are some people who will hope that you will be so infatuated with your puppy that by the time they come out and say they can't get the papers for some reason, you will still want to keep the puppy. But mostly people can provide paperwork. Mostly. If they can't well, then they have either gotten suspended by the AKC -- huge red flag, or they bred one or both dogs who aren't registered.

And this simply doesn't compute to me. Yes, there are stupid people everywhere, but the minute most people find out that the dog they paid for can't be registered, they are going to file a claim in small claims court for the purchase price of the dog. Chances are the judge will give them the entire purchase price back plus court costs. If papers are a concern, than no papers makes the dog next to worthless, I mean if you bought the dog for breeding, no papers means that is no-go. So the reason you paid X for the dog, was because it had papers, and you can convince any judge that you were sold something under false pretenses.

So it just doesn't make sense in my opinion for them to say they will knowing they cannot. Sorry.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:27 PM   #40 (permalink)
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What does your contract say? Do you even have a contract?
No contract, which I could NOT believe!!!!

Also, here is what I wanted in a dog.

1) Great companion, first and foremost.
2) Obedient, able to learn obedience.
3) Take him to some Schutzenhund training.
4) Protect my house.

I don't care at all about breeding or shows, or anything. I just feel like this person potentially took advantage of my kindness. If that is the case, so be it, I have a contingency plan.

You're all great. Thanks for your advice.
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