breeder red flag?

[selzer]

Originally Posted by carmspack

also remember that the due date is not a singular day . A female may be bred over a 5 day period -- had one happy female that would stand almost the entire 21 days of the cycle - you witness a tie , you figure out when those pups are due. Anyway even at best the gestation time is 60 to 63 days , then figure out if conception was on day one or the last time you had a tie , and then the semen has a survivability of 48 hrs(?) so conception again is not the date of the tie .

You may have in some cases a litter that may be born a week later than expected by calendar estimation.

O C'mon Carmen, everyone knows that breeders should take their bitches in multiple times and have their blood tested mutliple times to pinpoint the exact day of ovulation. Then that can add 63 days to that, and they can then schedule the day off, and tell all their prospective puppy buyers when the pups are due.

At about 4 weeks they just must do an ultrasound to ensure that conception has taken place and there are puppies. It won't tell you the number or sex though, but you might as well contact puppy buyers with that information at well. If the bitch contracts something while at the vet and loses the litter, well tough luck, it is just so much more important that we have that information for the puppy buyers that are going to split or get a puppy elsewhere before these guys are ready to go anyway.

Because we don't know how many yet, we should go ahead and take her back to the vet at about 8 weeks along to get a count. Puppy buyers will want to know this too, even though, again they will not know if they are males or females either, and they will not even know if the count is accurate, but, what the hey, get her x-rayed and expose her to the vet again, and x-rays again.

And, just because your bitch was pregnant, doesn't mean she stayed pregnant. Bitches can resorb puppies for a number of weeks.

It is nature. It happens. I generally wait a week before contacting, though I have only lost pups once after the first day. That first week though is always kind of nerve-racking.

[VaBeachFamily]

Deposits seems to be a huge personal preference. I know breeders that do 10% down, up to 50% down. I don't know any that take deposits before birth. I know one woman that offers them up for sale at 2 weeks, but will not consider a puppy sold until it is payed for, so you can pay all up front, and she will make sure the contract is there, but if something happens to the pup, she will refund 100%. Then, the refundable part.. some offer no refund, no NOTHING, while some offer to move it to another litter, and others offer to pay it back... it's all a matter of each person. I think if it were I , I would just take a percentage, non refundable, with an option for next litter, but not an option to hold past the NEXT litter. After that it is forfeited.

[lhczth]

Then you have the other option. I just don't take deposits. If someone decides to move on then so be it.

[sit,stay]

I don't think the quality or repute of a breeder can be ascertained through answering the question of whether or not they accept deposits. Or by how aggressively/expensively they investigate the status of the supposed pregnancy.

But I surely do believe that an ethical, reputable breeder will NOT wait for those who have given deposits to contact them for updates to share the news that there is no litter. And I also believe that an ethical, reputable breeder would also honor the contracted purchase price and offer at least one comparable replacement option at that contracted purchase price.

After all, if you (the universal breeder "you") insist on following the letter of the contract that says no refunds ever, then all aspects of that contract should be followed, including the purchase price. Picking and choosing which aspects of a contract you'll follow in the case of a problem stinks.
Sheilah

[Noles20]

I don't know anything about breeding dogs but I do know a lot about communication. A good communicator considers how the message will be received. In this case, while it may have seemed normal to the breeder that the dog was not pregnant, to the buyer, this might not make sense at all. It would have been helpful for the breeder to offer the buyer some kind of explanation. If he/she can educate the buyer and help it make sense to him/her, both parites would benefit. Failing to do this does not make the breeder a bad breeder at all. My 2 cents.

[VaBeachFamily]

Lisa... do you not accept anything to hold until the pups are old enough to go home?

[lhczth]

Nope. I took a deposit once because she was insistent. I actually have only had one person back out and it was due to extenuating circumstances. I never want a buyer to feel like they are obligated to get a pup nor do I ever want to feel like I am obligated to sell a pup. I am always more than willing to keep back puppies for as long as needed. There is a market for started young dogs with prelims so I don't worry about being "stuck" with a puppy.

[martemchik]

After reading some "horror" stories about what happens when someone picks a breeder, puts down a deposit to go on a waiting list for a puppy, and then have to wait a year or more for their turn to finally come up...I don't know if I'd ever do something like that. Mostly because I can't plan a year ahead, and with something like a puppy its tough to just sit around and wait for that phone call that your turn is finally up.

Too many breeders out there that regular people can purchase from that would give you a very solid puppy. For those looking for a particular line or a particular grandparent/parent...then yes...you might have to search the one breeder out that has that, but for the rest of us its pretty crazy to put down a deposit and then not really know when you'll get a dog.

My current dog...I put down a deposit but it was after the pups were born and on the ground. My next dog...I'm dealing with a club member and good friend so I don't think a deposit will be necessary. Plus if I do have to back out for any reason, she'll find a home for this dog before I get done telling her that I can't take her.

[SFGSSD]

Originally Posted by Noles20

I don't know anything about breeding dogs but I do know a lot about communication. A good communicator considers how the message will be received. In this case, while it may have seemed normal to the breeder that the dog was not pregnant, to the buyer, this might not make sense at all. It would have been helpful for the breeder to offer the buyer some kind of explanation. If he/she can educate the buyer and help it make sense to him/her, both parites would benefit. Failing to do this does not make the breeder a bad breeder at all. My 2 cents.

Nicely said,
Professionals in any field sometimes take things for granted and in there mind instantly chalk it up as a "given" and unintentionally forget that not everyone knows as much as they do on the subject. I am guilty of this as well as other professionals in any field. Sometimes we just unintentionally disregard the competency level of who we are speaking with.


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[Dainerra]

You should also remember that the breeder might have been very upset about losing the litter and didn't want to draw out their own pain with a long explanation of what happened. Or it could have been a grisly or sad story that they didn't think that others would want to hear the details of.
As others have said, it could have been that they thought there was a litter until the due date.
"There are no puppies. I'm sorry" is really all of the answer they might have been up to giving at the time...