Need advice!

[e.rigby]

So I'm definitely still new to German Shepherds and the different lines, breeders, pedigrees etc...

In the future, I would like to get a puppy -- however, I know what I don't want, but am still trying to figure out what I do want.

I do not want a show line puppy. Going by this site, I like the East German Lines and the Czech/Slovak lines the best.

With a quick internet search I found this breeder, and really liked their dogs.

So, opinions?

My current GSD (Virgil) is from this breeder (Vom Haus Rentz) (opinions on this breeder?)

I'd appreciate any and all input! I'm basically looking for a well bred sable working lines GSD! Ultimately location of the breeder doesn't matter, but I am in Virginia -- so if there's an exceptional breeder nearby I'd love to know!

[JakodaCD OA]

If I may, why not go back to Virgil's breeder? Looks like they have some nice dark sable dogs on their site?

My female is out of a slovak dam/ddr/czech sire..Love her to pieces, I didn't get her because of color, I got her because the breeder felt she would be the best match for me. Color was the last thing tho I do have my preferences

Masi isn't for the faint of heart, at 3, I am finally seeing a good 'off' switch on her, settles nicely..She's very high energy, would 'go' until she dropped dead if I asked her, can be demanding with "lets do something NOW"...is no couch potatoe, and requires ALOT of my time, tho I have that luxury

What I'm saying is, tho I love this dog to death, she isn't for everyone. She would not do well in a home if she had to sit around all day. If those are the lines you like, I highly recommend you go check out dogs in person, with those lines and go from there.

I can't really comment on the breeders you posted as I have no real knowledge of them, but their dogs are gorgeous

[boeselager]

I believe Barb is the breeder to the first link you posted and she really knows her dog's well. She is on another GSD forum that I'm on, that's how I know her. I'm not into Czech dog's though, lol!!!

[carmspack]

I'm wondering the same thing , why not go back to the von Rentz. You ask us our opinion on the breeder. We should be asking YOU . You're the one who has experience with the dog and the breeder .
There are lots of well bred sable working line german shepherds. They do not have to come from DDR or Czech lines.
This is a trend which has an effect on good breeders because you can have niche to the market breeders setting up shop simply by buying a few "DDR" or "Czech" dogs with the desirable colours --(black sable) , yet they have no foundation in knowledge of the breed over all and even less in their chosen set of genetics. That leaves some very good , logical , sound litters not even open for consideration because they are not "ddr" or "czech" , and yet they would fill all the needs and then some .

The birthplace of the breed concentrated and used genetics from herding stock.
The real working dogs (prior to and after public registries) had to have instincts to the sheep and instincts to keeping a boundary. This natural repertoire made work easy -- the dog "had it" . The dog also had good communication and good co-operation with the handler . The dog assumed responsiblity and could work independantly or under direction.

There are lines which are said to have near human intelligence -- Racker Itztal is one I can put on this list. Just so happens that Racker has a valuable near background of foundation herding lines V Racker vom Itztal - German Shepherd Dog
Racker is a contemporary of Bernd Lierberg, Marko Cellerland, Mutz Pelztierfarm and Canto Wienerau born one year apart.

This is where working lines developed in the west german faction -- . Those that utilized the first three became working , those that concentrated on Canto became show.

I have found one line going back to Marko through a dam line on the pedigree of a 2010 Sieger show placer , which may bring in some benefit . I just can not find lines that used Racker -- of course so far it is a mind game , and not a priority for me and my limited available time.

Countries that were closed off because of political boundaries did not have access to these dogs - although Bernd Lierberg was able to penetrate the DDR and used to very good use to open up the haus Himpel dogs. Marko is represented on few lines Vachon Onyx-Bohemia being an immediate first generation of him.
This restriction was artificial .


The DDR has a rich vein of old herding stock in SOME lines , others have developed into sharper types used to detect and stop people.
Since this was part of Germany , cultural use continued in addition to new priorities .
You have to know the lines . DDR is open for discovery , lines can be researched .

In the background , with linebreeding of DDR dogs you have Ali Granert -- who is also much line bred on the isolated genetics of Sweden (until recently) .

Czech dogs developed according to their needs which was powerful confident dogs used in the oppression and intimidation of people. Czech lines were military / police border enforcement dogs . Brute strength. Good hunt search drive. Natural hardness.

Many of the Czech lines were founded on Klodo Boxberg , a Czech Sieger of German blood (1920's) who von Stephanitz chose as the "father" of new blood to correct structural problems (high leg , short body) and character temperament problems of the day (unsteady - spooky) .

Klodo had the typical formula for the breed still in its infancy, that of the trophy or show sire line and a dam line going to herding .

I owned Akut Lablapega , brother to Alf VA Alf Lablapega - German Shepherd Dog Here you can see how much DDR blood he is , all but the dam's maternal line . Don't look at "Orana" because that is just plain wrong - someone has been fooling around-- the timeline alone makes it impossible . This is wrong information.

When I introduced my next Czech dog it was through Kety Betkin Dvor VELMI DOBRA Kety Betkin Dvor - German Shepherd Dog because she was a daughter of Emir Chabet , which I wanted to strategically integrate through a female rather than male line .

Emir's sire was Car who was an excellent producer and his sire Dux Agar brings in some of the best DDR lines , on her dam's line you have some of the best west German lines, including Racker Itztal, even Lierberg lines.

I bred her to Bad Derik Bad Derik - German Shepherd Dog , so you see the aforementioned Alf Lablapega with his extensive DDR background , you
Gitti Kornersee with her haus himpel sourced Bernd Lierberg , you see Bernd Lierberg through Eros Busecker Schloss , very old herding lines through Bert Knufken,.

There was never any thought given to being an isolated pure source.

You want good strong bone , you want high thresholds , you want a lower stationed , big obviously masculine , obviously feminine head then there is your answer --- go to the dogs with a background rich in the old herding lines -- sometimes even unknown as to parents but certainly known and appreciated for ability. An "unknown" was put in to correct so great thought was put in to it.

If you insist on a pure ddr , or pure czech ask some questions , the whys and wherefors .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[Ace952]

Barb is a really great person and I would go to her anytime for a pup. I have trained with her, had her keep my pup for a month to get a handle on him & I later bought a dog from her as well.

She answers emails and phone calls and has no problem sitting and talking about dogs even if you don't buy one from her. She is a big fan of Titus & Norbo (you will see linebreeding on in some of her pups PED) which is a good thing.

I am biased as I know her and see her but I wouldn't recommend if I didn't believe so.

[e.rigby]

Actually, I have absolutely no experience with the breeder. Virgil is a rescue, I've only had him for about 2-3 months! I have his registered name and followed it back to that breeder. I've been to their site, but when I've attempted to contact them I've heard absolutely nothing back and it's been at least 2 months!

When I said I wanted a specific type, I know that it could lead me to finding a poorly bred dog who's breeders advertise based on 'non important key points' such as 'this is a ddr dog or this dog is from these lines etc'

I really do appreciate your post, Carmen. I want as much input/opinions/suggestions/and even warnings as possible. I do not plan on getting this puppy for another year or two -- so consider this the very early research phase. It starts with a want, and then it grows into an educated decision!

What I want is a dog that looks and acts a specific way. I've been training for eight years, I've seen so many poorly bred German Shepherds so I have this fear of what I 'could' get if I'm not careful!

More important than looks, I want a dog that is healthy, both physically and mentally! I can handle a willful dog, that's not going to be a problem, but I don't want a nervous, overly anxious dog or one with poor hips/elbows/etc. Since I am human, and I do like the look of a specific German line, that's where I choose to look. I posted a link to a breeder I found that seemed to match my criteria -- however, a website can only give you but so much information! I really want to know what others who have specifically dealt with these breeders or who own one of their dogs think!

And it doesn't have to be confined to a breeder I post about. I've found that a lot of great breeders can't be found easily through an internet search!

I like Virgil, but being unable to contact his breeder is a bit disheartening. I really wanted to visit and see the breeder's dogs and his facilities, etc. I also wanted to know how much of Virgil's anxiety is due to his breeding (if any) and how much is due to his background (as he was primarily kept outside and received no training and very little socialization). Virgil is also not exactly what I'm looking for as far as looks go and his confirmation is a bit off (muzzle is very long, back legs are cow hocked, etc) ... I still love him and think he's got it in him to be an awesome dog; but if I'm going to go to an actual breeder - I want to make sure I start off with a genetically sound dog from the very get go!

I guess overall I have a very long way to go! I just want to know that I did everything possible before hand to ensure I'm getting the dog I want from a great breeder.

Also, since it's important to know -- I plan on doing either schutzhund or personal protection work (not sure what the difference is -- as I'm still learning and have entered upon some very heated debates about the two) and SAR. Of course, I'd also like to go for a few titles in obedience and I enjoy doing Rally with my dogs.

[e.rigby]

Also, thanks to everyone that has posted so far I think I might shoot Barb and email sometime in the near future just to inquire about her dogs.

[JakodaCD OA]

didn't realize virgil was a rescue (thanks for rescuing him!) and sorry they don't get back to you Maybe try calling them? Sometimes people just don't check their computers..

I would also call/email Barb since you have gotten good reviews on her, doesnt hurt to call/check out everyone and anyone to get a feel of what's out there)

[e.rigby]