Hmmm...What do you think?

[carmspack]

Well hello there. I am "with" Cliff on this one.

Horror of horrors I advertised on kijiji . In fact it was a contact from kijiji which brought me to this great little forum. thanks for that .

When you get as old as Cliff and I you realize that times and things have changed. I had this converstation with psd Mike some time ago. You have to constantly adapt to social changes. When I started out the local newspaper had thick and journalistically excellent news magazines as part of the Saturday paper . There was a section dedicated to adverts , including the go to place for "pets - large livestock". Now you have a barely literate group of news jockeys , no indepth . You have the ads section on the weekend a single page here or there as thin as tissue paper.
Magazines and newspapers are having a difficult time - vanishing . Everything is on line. So where are the on line ads. Kijiji is one. I am not crazy about it , resisted for a long long time because it does have the connotation of bargain basement , discount mall dealing . People do use these sites and so you become accessible . Times are changing . We have to adapt .

I only have one to two litters a year.

That means if I put an ad in the Dogs Annual , then I have enquiries all year long which I respond to - so valuable time, and money on the ad. If I put an ad in with a gorgeous professional picture (Mark Raycroft) then I have people that want a dog EXACTLY like that -- colour oriented . I have even had people be specific about the "pumpkin seeds" above the eyebrows on some of the dark dogs. Sheesh. So no pictures. But you are competing with pictures .
Then there are people whose criterion of excellence is that the dog is black and tan , black and red. Go away . Yes getting short . I could have the worlds "most superest cape wearing hero dog " , oh but it is sable , so it is not a gsd.
So should you advertise in Dog World or Dog Fancy for the snobbery . Who on this forum buys these magazines?
In the magazines you would afford a few lines which get buried by attention grabbing two page centerfold full colour glossy black and red "team" show producing kennels which keep on breeding first generation dogs. Do you know what those pages cost every month . Thousands . In a reverse psychology that means these people are good because they can demand $$$ 's and can afford the $$$'s for the ads. That has nothing to do with quality.
Pedigree data base is on line , internet advertising. I have used it to buy . Got outstanding pups from Parchimer Land that put up a link -- so glad they did. Now how do we find foreign dogs for sale? That is one of the advantages of on line .
So Dharmasmom -- good luck . Because you put an ad somewhere does not mean you approve of every one else advertising in the same place. I am the first to bring out the cannons of disapproval for some of the things going on in the breed. I have no knowledge of the ebay thing . A dog is not merchandise . A very thorough screening process is used. With my Nov 3 litter I turned away 4 or 5 people -- . I am very selective . However if ebay was just a place to get the name out there to have people contact you I have no problem. On the other hand has no one ever visited a web site of really well known "breeders" who have a handy PayPal link to pay for the dog ??? I have . There are lots of breeders / kennels out there that are pretty commercial -- one of which , (no longer breeding) had waiting lists and you did not even have a choice of which litter your pup came from . You paid your bucks you took a number and when your number came up a pup of the right gender was chosen for you . yes . So the motto come on and come all has nothing to do with where a dog is advertised. I don't support pet-shop mentality. Say it again -- a dog is not a commodity .

My dogs don't sell for $2,500 or $3,000 or $6,000 as some have said they have spent.

I can not get my head around people choosing their dog out of a litter when the pup is only 2 weeks old. I would not allow that. That is lazy. Lazy. Commodifiy the pup. A widget on a shelf. If and when I have a litter and I have interested parties they can come out and socialize with the pups in my house when they are about 5 weeks of age. In other words when the pup is able to display some dynamics. I can sit back and I can evaluate the pups basic personality, allow me to have long discussions with the people , get to know them. Then we reserve a pup a male or a female but have not finalized it till the pups are older.

So let us take a step back in time. Litters were bred because someone needed a dog themselves as a replacement. Let's use the GSD . Some proud hard working shepherd had a very fine female that was out in the fields working away. A working partner dog may have had some age creeping up and was soon due to retire . So said shepherd may have had his eye on a fellow shepherd guild member who had a superior hard working male herding dog. A breeding was agreed on , litter is born, each shepherd picks one or two pups and the rest taken to the Saturday market in wicker basket for sale.

good and interesting conversation in this thread
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs -- proud of it

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by Doc

With 80+% of the people having computers in their homes or access to a computer, how do you think people "start" their research? Probably by a search on "German shepherds"? And if they want to buy a German shepherd, how would they search for that? "German shepherds puppies for sale" maybe?

yes - and people who breed for the pet market are savvy and use keywords like "old fashioned" "large" etc to draw buyers to their websites when they are breeding purely for big buck pets with non-standard breeding stock - oversized, large, coats, lacking in the working character dogs....so many out there like that....sigh..........capitolizing on the character and image of the breed, while all the while ignoring what the breed should be

Lee

[Doc]

Originally Posted by wolfstraum

yes - and people who breed for the pet market are savvy and use keywords like "old fashioned" "large" etc to draw buyers to their websites when they are breeding purely for big buck pets with non-standard breeding stock - oversized, large, coats, lacking in the working character dogs....so many out there like that....sigh..........capitolizing on the character and image of the breed, while all the while ignoring what the breed should be

Lee

Yeah, much like show and "working" line breeders producing dogs that are suppose be the true German shepherd. It's a down right shame. Titled dogs that didn't earn their titles but rather were bought; judges that breed dogs and enter them into shows that they judge; a hand out behind the ring; all the unethical ways "good" dogs are promoted. Just face it, the dog world is not immune to marketing or bribery. All a breeder can do is to choose their battles wisely.

[CassandGunnar]

Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.
I'm just curious as to how you would advise that person because, IMO, that seems to be the majority of buyers who "look elsewhere" for their dog.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious.

[Emoore]

Originally Posted by CassandGunnar

Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.

1) Give serious thought and consideration to rescue. No, they don't all have emotional or behavioral issues; yes, many of them are good with kids and cats; yes, they'll bond to you just as well; no, most of them are not old and sick. In fact most of the dogs in rescue are under 2 years old. As for health, you can take a young adult through every medical test under the sun before you get to the price you'd pay for a pup from a responsible breeder. A young adult rescue that's passed his medical tests is FAR more likely to be healthy than a puppy from a byb'er.

2) If rescue just isn't an option because you want the joys of bloody hands and sleepless nights and pee on the carpet that only a puppy can fulfill, contact a responsible breeder of any lines and be very clear with them that you're looking for a family companion. If $$$ is an issue consider a coatie or a cryptorchid.

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by Doc

Yeah, much like show and "working" line breeders producing dogs that are suppose be the true German shepherd. It's a down right shame. Titled dogs that didn't earn their titles but rather were bought; judges that breed dogs and enter them into shows that they judge; a hand out behind the ring; all the unethical ways "good" dogs are promoted. Just face it, the dog world is not immune to marketing or bribery. All a breeder can do is to choose their battles wisely.

No system is perfect - schools pass kids through just to get them out of the population, jails release prisoners for overcrowding - so the argument that some dogs get titles that aren't earned does not hold water - sorry.....it may not be perfect, and there are dogs who get passed who should fail....but it is better than NOTHING!!! A truly weak dog will get failed, a truly nervy dog who is not conditioned to gunfire will be excused from a ring....Have seen it happen...and trial results will note a dog being failed for gunshyness....

I showed horses for years - always knew that if I won a first or second, I had earned it - LOL and there were no students or connections of the judges in the class!!! Did better under judges who were not Quarter Horse/App/Paint trainers because the Open Judges who trained gaited horses did not have connections in the class....anything judged by humans is going to be imperfect....but still....selling oversized, coated, generation after generation of BYB GSD look alikes is not IMO a breeder with integrity - it is a breeder wtih a fat wallet -

Again, Doc - what do you breed? What have you done? You are very critical of the SV system? Can your dogs pass the Sch test and koer?

Lee

[Doc]

Originally Posted by CassandGunnar

Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.
I'm just curious as to how you would advise that person because, IMO, that seems to be the majority of buyers who "look elsewhere" for their dog.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious.

I wouldn't ask the question on any forum that is full of highly opinionated breeders of working line German shepherds or dominated by rescue/shelter supporters.

[bunchoberrys]

[GSDElsa]

Originally Posted by Doc

I wouldn't ask the question on any forum that is full of highly opinionated breeders of working line German shepherds or dominated by rescue/shelter supporters.

Oh Doc....

People intermingle on here just fine. Breeders and rescue people alike.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by wolfstraum

No system is perfect - schools pass kids through just to get them out of the population, jails release prisoners for overcrowding - so the argument that some dogs get titles that aren't earned does not hold water - sorry.....it may not be perfect, and there are dogs who get passed who should fail....but it is better than NOTHING!!! A truly weak dog will get failed, a truly nervy dog who is not conditioned to gunfire will be excused from a ring....Have seen it happen...and trial results will note a dog being failed for gunshyness....

I showed horses for years - always knew that if I won a first or second, I had earned it - LOL and there were no students or connections of the judges in the class!!! Did better under judges who were not Quarter Horse/App/Paint trainers because the Open Judges who trained gaited horses did not have connections in the class....anything judged by humans is going to be imperfect....but still....selling oversized, coated, generation after generation of BYB GSD look alikes is not IMO a breeder with integrity - it is a breeder wtih a fat wallet -

Again, Doc - what do you breed? What have you done? You are very critical of the SV system? Can your dogs pass the Sch test and koer?

Lee

I could less about showing horses. It has absolutely nothing to do with determining what constitute what a German shepherd should be. Like I said, as a breeder, you have to choose your battles. I do not think titles/awards make a dog. I focus on bloodlines, genetics, observations, interactions, listening to folks that have many years of experience and knowledge to share. I've said it before, rules, regulations, politics, greed, money, and a lack of knowledge/respect of this breed is a battle I choose not to engage in. If that makes me and my dogs unworthy, so be it. I've been called a lot worse by better people.