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Old 06-19-2010, 08:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Think I've picked a breeder/pup!

Sorry for starting another thread. I wasn't sure whether to post it here or to put it in the "choosing a puppy" forum.

I'm pretty definite on choosing one of these male pups:

http://www.schraderhausk9.com/puppy_pic_page_helga x norbo.htm

I told her all of the stuff I've told you guys (it was a long email, haha), stressing that although I do intend to do at least basic personal protection with him, he will above all, be a family dog and companion. I said:

I don't want him to be ridiculously dominant or aggressive, or have a crazy prey drive, and not at all shy. I want him to be versatile, not extreme in any direction. I want a solid-nerved, balanced, medium drive, social pup that can do personal protective training, and also live with us and our dogs, and have him around other dogs, cats and children. I want him to think before he reacts. Our family can be quite active with the dog, but I don't want a dog with a very strong drive that absolutely requires a huge outlet in order to be balanced.

I know that much of that is socialization and training and that you can't make guarantees on such things, but based on what I've tried to impart about our hopes and goals and lifestyle, are any of the currently available puppies suitable for us, and if not, do you have any upcoming litters with offspring that may be a better match for us?


She said that any of the pups from that litter will be exactly suited to the temperament I'm looking for. Two are spoken for, but she's not 100% certain which two yet, but the most drivey two. She's thinking that the red collar one will be the one we end up with.


She also has this litter, with three available males:

http://www.schraderhausk9.com/puppy_..._yeltsa_x_chac har.htm

But said that only the green collar pup is suited to us, the other two are very high drive, and only for people definitely going to do schutzhund.

She said the temperament of the green collar Yeltza pup is about the same as the Norbo litter pup. As such, we like the appearance of the Norbo pups better, since we love the very dark sable with the light circles around the eyes.


What do you guys think, based on the info and pedigrees and what I've told you and such? You are waaaay more knowledgeable about these things.


Is this a standard contract?

http://www.schraderhausk9.com/Micros...ee_page1-3.pdf


There were some puppies I'm interested in from Kreative, Vom Banach and Sapphire as well, but Kreative and Vom Banach haven't returned my emails, and Kreative hasn't returned my emails or call. Sapphire was super awesome, but her pups aren't due until July, which means I won't get one for another couple of months.

My husband isn't working much right now, and I'm not working for the next few months, so we figured it's a perfect time to bring home a puppy to get adjusted, since we're home 24/7 right now. I like both breeders and their dogs, so we're leaning towards the ones available now.

But what do you think?

PS, Thanks for all of the help!!
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You are rushing, slow yourself down and do more research...this pup will live with your for at least 10 years if you are lucky. You've spent a few days here asking questions, and still need to do a bit more background work. Not saying anything about the kennel you chose, I know nothing about them(they look fine from the website/the first link you posted didn't work), but I do know that spending a month or so(at least) to find the right breeder will only benefit the outcome.
As others have said before:
Spend time going to clubs and looking at dogs. You can make contacts while doing so, and get input from those training in the venue of your choice.
Sloww down for now is my advice.
The contract looks fine, if you do more research, you wouldn't have to even ask.

I'm not trying to get you upset, but I just don't think you should rush this. Half of the fun of getting a pup is the stress of finding a good breeder and then waiting for the litter to be born, then waiting to see if there is a right match, then getting the call that there is, then bringing that puppy home! If you feel this breeder has all that you want, then go for it, only you can know, not others on a discussion forum.
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Last edited by onyx'girl; 06-19-2010 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have to agree with Onyx.

This is not a situation you want to rush into and get the first cute puppy you see. Neither of the links worked for me so I can not comment, but I would definitely say that visiting clubs, talking to other owners, spending time asking questions and REALLy understanding and retaining the answers and information will be so benificial for you.

Half the fun of getting a puppy is the horrid waiting period... makes the puppy even more special.
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm not sure why the links aren't working. It's Schraderhaus, Norbo and Helga's litter.
Here is the link again:

SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs


I know what you guys are saying, and I tend to agree. I know that I can be obsessive and very much want instant gratification, haha.

I've posted on boards asking for comments and suggestions from people with way more knowledge on dogs and breeders than I'll ever have, and I know that just because they say something, that's not the be-all end-all truth of the matter, it's subject to opinion, like nything else, but it's still helpful, especially when I get many people many places that attest to the reputation of certain breeders. Also, as I said, I'm not working, and so I've spent day and night on the internet researching breeders and lines and their temperaments and whatnot, looking at their offsping, and just searching for any mentions or word of mouth I can find on these breeders, and emailing them and asking a ton of questions and all that good stuff. As a lay-person, what more can I really do?

Basically, I narrowed it down to the breeders that I felt were knowledgeable and the dogs that I feel I'd be pretty happy with ANY of, if the breeder recommended that the dog suited my needs.

Also, as I said, I would really like to have him come home and get adjusted here during this rare time period where both of us are home very often.
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Remember that when you go back to work that will be a huge adjustment, so plan accordingly...otherwise separation anxiety may pop up when pup is alone without you in his life for 8 hours a day. I got my pup in late April(last year) he had the summer with my kids at home, but I had him routinely crated, so when they went back to school, he was use to the schedule.
Jumping into this because the timing is right, is your call, but 6 months from now, you may wish you would have taken more time....I know this from experience with my "surprise" pup Onyx.
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The puppies look beautiful and healthy. If these are the lines you want I would ask some different questions. One, have those two dogs producing a litter of pups all with medium drive had other litters? If the breeder is breeding for drivey SchH dogs how do they have a whole litter of pups that are not? If this is a first breeding I would still ask why they chose those two dogs. Generally if you have one medium drive dog you breed to a dog with super drive.
If this is the type and lines you want I would buy the pup. The contract is standard. The price would be a factor for this pup based on the lack of drive. It may be perfect for you but someone looking to buy a SchH dog from them would reject the whole litter. A working line with low or medium drive should cost less then a high drive competetive SchH dog. I am wondering why you want to train for a PPD. There is so much more to PPD than teaching a dog to attack and defend. Most SHepherds are naturally protective and don't need to be trained to recognize a threat. General rule is that a female will protect the people and a male will protect the property. Not to say that a male won't defend his people. I don't thinnk any dog should start bite work until they are at least one year old and PPD training at two. You may find as your pup matures that he doesn't need PPD training or with experience you may not want him trained for it. On buying the puppy, go with what you feel is right. If you and your husband have alot of time to work with the pup now, the timing my be right for you.
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Great point Onyx.

I got Stark in June and I had 2 months off so I was home a lot with him. I too crated him for a few hours here and there during the day so that he would become familar with the crate. I had a different crating set-up (with x-pen attached) but he still was use to being confined with and without me around.

Having a plan in place for everything, even if you don't follow it exactly when the puppy comes hoem will help with training, adjustments, and your sanity.. lol.
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:43 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Schraderhaus is an excellent kennel, I had them in mind when I was looking for a puppy before I got Akbar.

But like the others have said, don't rush into things, you might regret it later on. Take your time, talk to MANY breeders and get a feel for what you want. You need to feel comfortable with the breeder you choose. It took me years before I got Akbar and when I did, I went to the breeder's house a year before Akbar was even born. I got to know his breeder well and we are friends.
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Old 06-20-2010, 12:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I agree with the rest. We took over a year to find exactly what we wanted...I know puppies are so hard to resist! Take your time-this is an extreemly important decision that will impact the entire household.
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Old 06-20-2010, 03:46 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by showshepherds4me View Post
I would ask some different questions. One, have those two dogs producing a litter of pups all with medium drive had other litters? If the breeder is breeding for drivey SchH dogs how do they have a whole litter of pups that are not? If this is a first breeding I would still ask why they chose those two dogs.
Good question! I think I read that it's Helga's first litter. The other litter that had one pup that was an option for me was Yeltza and Chacher, but since they have very similar personalities, I'm letting the temperament of both parents and the coat color sway my vote to Norbo and Helga's litter.
I asked her your question. Here's the answer:


The temperaments in the pups from Helga's litter are plenty drivey, but they're not a non-stop, 24/7 kind of drive in this litter. Helga is a certified narcotics K9, and has good work ethic and can do protection work very well, and she is also a very sweet, kind female. That doesn't mean she can't do the work...She is a very balanced dog, and still does well in schutzhund, and she has a terrific nose. She comes from very good working background, which has done very well in schutzhund sport. Helga and her littermates were out of my recently retired female Loly. Helga and her littermates were born in Slovakia before Loly was imported to the US, and all the litter went on to be good working sport or service dogs. I have had several litters from Loly, who was a very serious, intense and tough female, but she could also kick back and settle in the house with us. I just recently retired Loly into a military family...to protect the wife with a 2 year old daughter who's husband is serving in Iraq. It Helga's brother is a working Police K9. Here is a clip from Helga's littermate, working Police K9..

(The video is pretty cheesy. And pardon my ignorance, but why do they have to physically pull the dog off when he bites? SHouldn't he release when they tell him to, or is this different?)




Helga's father is still being used at stud in Slovakia and is a highly respected and well known dog for his capable working abilities and for passing down these same excellent working qualities. .

Yeltsa also comes from very good working lines, but she herself is full of non stop drive...she's also very sweet and loving, but she never slows down. That can be a little difficult to take for some folks, and I would say that I see this kind of drive in two of the remaining Yeltsa pups. This trait comes from Yeltsa's mother Elba who seemed to have never ending energy. Yeltsa's father, my East German male Lux, has the off switch I like, but he is also a super good protection dog who will react in a very serious way when there is a threat. The dogs I myself enjoy the most have the intense drive there when needed, but with an off switch. These dogs have the ability to settle in the house and make excellent family members...Helga has this, and so does Norbo, and you can see that the pups are quite calm at times, but are quickly ready to respond to anything that grabs their interest. That is my favorite kind of dog...well rounded, and capable of most anything you ask of it. A dog doesn't have to be "in a frenzy with drive" to do schutzhund...those kind of 24/7 high drive dogs are what competitors looking to do high level competition sport look for in their dogs, and often police dogs need this kind of drive as well, for when they are in process of apprehending a desperate criminal who will do anything to avoid capture, including killing the dog. These dogs have to be seriously intense...but it's really not what schutzhund originated for in its purpose, which is test for breed worthiness, working ability and brains of the working German shepherd dog. Those dogs that can pass the test, scoring a minimum of 70 points in tracking, 70 in obedience, and 80 in protection (to be considered pronounced in protection and go on for their Sch 3) earn their titles and are thus considered breed worthy in Europe. They don't all have to be high level competition dogs...some of which I would never want to own, or breed to be honest. They're simply over the top crazy with drive and not what the average person looks to add into a family and try to live with! http://www.schraderhausk9.com/schutz...t_it_takes.htm



I think a lot of what she said was for my benefit, since I said I'm interested in schutzhund, but I obviously have no clue what it really takes to have a good shutzhund dog.

But the more she says about the personalities of these puppies, the more excited I get, because they sound like just what I'm looking for. I would think that maybe she was just saying what I want to hear, but from everything I've read, Schraderhaus seems to have a good reputation.

Quote:
The price would be a factor for this pup based on the lack of drive. A working line with low or medium drive should cost less then a high drive competetive SchH dog.
It's $1200 for limited registration, $1500 for full registration, which is less expensive than other litters I've been looking at, so I assume that is a lower price for less drive-y dogs?
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Last edited by blackviolet; 06-20-2010 at 03:53 AM.
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