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Old 07-07-2014, 10:31 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Do you know who came up with this and how? Not arguing, I believe they live in the moment. Just wondering how this was decided
I don't think they miss people. I've never seen a dog get dropped off here miss their owners. They show up the people to away and even if they're here for months they're just like oh ok this is my life now. There's no deep depression or anything like that although some are misplaced for a bit in the new environment generally that's gone within 2-3 days and they're completely settled in.

When they see their owners again are they happy? Sure. I don't think they gave them a single thought though.

I don't know who came up with it. I just believe it from what I see. Separation anxiety for example. It's not because your dog loves you and wants to be with you (not saying they don't), because a dog with separation anxiety will display that behavior even towards us (trainers) the first day they meet us and are dropped off for board and train. It's conditioned behavior not a dwelling on a person or loyalty or whatever.
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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How do people know that dogs live in the moment? I believe it but I'm wondering who came up with this and how they arrived there.

Also, how do they know how much dog remembers, like 2 mins, 5 mins. For example, my dog goes crazy if my daughter and I separate. After she's out of sight he will look for her for a few mins. So this means that he remembers she existed for 5 mins?

Like, what ends one episode for a dog and starts another?

I have more questions of this sort, can't remember now. Will add later
I think people confuse "living in the moment" with long term memory.

Dogs remember and have long memories. They remember people who have gone away for months. Something bad happening in a specific location. They remember extensive training such as SAR and SchH.

I think "living in the moment" means they have a difference sense of "time" than we do. They don't know the concept of 5 minutes or 5 hours. So when they see you again, you will have the same reaction.

I do they have some sense of time. I know when I go away, the longer I'm away the quieter Jax gets so as time drags on she is aware.
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm thinking about this from the point that we have a few secs to mark a behavior. That's because of what? Because there's no way to tell them what we are marking if a lot of time passed by?

Like let's say a dog peed, 10 mins later does he remember he peed?
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:54 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm thinking about this from the point that we have a few secs to mark a behavior. That's because of what? Because there's no way to tell them what we are marking if a lot of time passed by?

Like let's say a dog peed, 10 mins later does he remember he peed?
ahhh...there is a study out there that my trainer told me about (I have not read)...

A dog will associate a behavior with a reward/punishment within 3 seconds. I don't know why.

Does anyone know of this study?
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It's a myth. Pavlov moved the gap between bell and food out as far as 30 minutes and it still caused salivation just fine. The dog figures it out faster if the events are closer but you can stretch the gap out. Works even with punishment, you can mark a punishment with a no and stim with e collar and then stretch that gap out to 30 minutes and if you say no and wait 30 minutes you'll see the dog flinch like it was stimmed even if you didn't push the button.

Stronger associations are made quicker within the 1-3 second time frame but after that association is made you can quickly stretch the time frame out.
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:34 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Think it's are recent study. I'll ask that trainer.
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:41 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I think the big thing is house training. People will correct the dog for pottying hours after the fact, and expect the puppy to know what it did. A variation on this is to rub the pup's nose in it. Because they expect puppies to learn the way humans do. And if I rub your nose in your mistake, you are going to be very unlikely to do that again.

To counter this type of training, trainers have to get people to understand that dogs are totally different than humans. So they say they live in the moment, if you don't catch them in the act, you have missed your window of opportunity. This doesn't mean dogs do not remember things, particularly very positive things like where they found chicken bones; or very negative things, like snapping a mouse trap on a counter top. They will make associations that will last with things, smells, sights, body language. To fix the association we want to a specific thing, repeating it in close proximity/close timing makes for the quickest training.

Coming home 3 hours later and finding poop in the house and giving a negative reaction, or coming home 3 hours later and not finding poop in the house and giving a positive reaction is going to be very ineffective training. Particularly when it is usually the negative stuff that we remember to react to, so we are going to give a reaction every time there is poop in the house, but we will forgot the positive -- not that that works anyway: "Oh Fido, what a good boy you are, you didn't poopie in the house." Yeah, Fido thinks the strange lady is happy today, and does not associate his lack of offerings to your mood, he may offer a little urine in his excitement at your happiness.

Do dogs miss people, or are they just happy to see them? I think they do, some worse than others. Some go off food. And you can say, it is just that they are out of sorts because their routine is different. It can be true. We can't crawl up in their brains and know exactly what it is that makes them depressed. But that they suffer from depression or the doggy equivalent when their main person is no longer there, I think is quite common. I think that their capacity to bond with individuals is what has placed them in the position they are in in society. It is not a bond, if there is no effect.
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Then what about those dogs that will sit and wait for their owners? There was a movie that was a true story about an akita that went to the train station for years waiting for his owner to come home until the dog died. Or the stories about dogs who lay on their dead owners graves for years? And some dogs that are taken away from their owners and quit eating? I know of a case where this family gave their GSD to the Humane Society and the dog quit eating and was dead in 2 weeks.
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
ahhh...there is a study out there that my trainer told me about (I have not read)...

A dog will associate a behavior with a reward/punishment within 3 seconds. I don't know why.

Does anyone know of this study?

Yeah that's where I was getting at. Who came up with this and what was the experiments that led to it. I'd be so interested to know
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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It's a myth. Pavlov moved the gap between bell and food out as far as 30 minutes and it still caused salivation just fine. The dog figures it out faster if the events are closer but you can stretch the gap out. Works even with punishment, you can mark a punishment with a no and stim with e collar and then stretch that gap out to 30 minutes and if you say no and wait 30 minutes you'll see the dog flinch like it was stimmed even if you didn't push the button.

Stronger associations are made quicker within the 1-3 second time frame but after that association is made you can quickly stretch the time frame out.

If this is true then I'm more confused than I was before this thread.

They can remember and associate stuff within 30 min window? Have you tried doing the above? The mark and stim?
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