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Old 01-22-2013, 01:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks everyone... I'm putting a lot of thought into all the options out there. A few weeks off should clear my head to make the appropriate decision.



Here in Central FL, I've had a lot of people make comments. In the "working world" here, they are looked down on... ESPECIALLY with the protection people. Duke is also not the best representative of a GSD.... so, we get lots of comments and criticism. I've heard of some trainers declining them.

Regardless, I'm going to do what's best for us.... Just not 100% sure of what that is. I don't want to cut ties with my young one's breeder, cause I need him. I need to understand her still. She's a lot of dog, and I'm playing with fire.... I really don't want to get burned. He knows his lines well. So I'm nervous with going elsewhere and having bad feelings towards each other. But, I'll do what I have to do... and if that's what I feel is best... then so be it.

It's so complicated and everything is intertwined... Not sure any of the outcomes will be easy or go smooth. I have to make this one wisely.



I'm going to have our decoy work with me in bite work... but in OB, only the puppy can be around him. Duke doesn't like him. He would never be able to show me anything with him. lol

The reason I can't train on my own (for bitework) is Duke runs mostly on Defense. He has okay prey drive... but at the end of the day, he's Mr. Serious. He would never bite me. Sleeve or not.

But OB we will do here at the house.
I would still go check out new places. You're going to get "show line" cracks everywhere. Take them as just that wise cracks. With the new pup, we all want to think our dog is extremely unique and we have to stay with this trainer because they know that line and so on. When you travel and find good trainers you realize there are many dogs just like it and those trainers have experience and the know how to work them properly.

I'm not saying your pup is not special or not a lot of dog, just saying that there are lots of trainers/clubs out there capable of working her. Give them a chance. Oh, there is a show dog in my SDA club that has every title through a P3 and now working on the police dog titles and the owner still gets the showline comments. Most of the time they are joking or don't really care. Don't let the fear of the unknown hold you back from finding a great club.

I was all over the place in this post so I hope it makes sense haha
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:45 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm going to have our decoy work with me in bite work... but in OB, only the puppy can be around him. Duke doesn't like him. He would never be able to show me anything with him. lol
I think this is something you will get past rather quickly. I don't let other people demonstrate OB with my dogs. In the very beginning, I did for a while with Nikon....and then that did not end well, lol. You should definitely be able to work OB at your club without other people interfering. If the TD needs to demonstrate he can do it with *his* dog.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think this is something you will get past rather quickly. I don't let other people demonstrate OB with my dogs. In the very beginning, I did for a while with Nikon....and then that did not end well, lol. You should definitely be able to work OB at your club without other people interfering. If the TD needs to demonstrate he can do it with *his* dog.
Duke thinks it's bite work every time he's around. OB would be a waste of time.. all I would do is fight Duke the whole time. His dog is also trained a little different. So I'm not sure he'd be the best to help me out with OB. His dog does the guard dog stuff and some other bull dog things. He doesn't have shepherds... he breeds and trains American Bulldogs. He's knowledgeable with Schutzhund and decoying... But I don't know how far that goes into that style of OB.

And my trainer changed his prices recently to where bite work by itself has to be approved by him (the dog has to be "fully trained" in order to only do bite work) AND it's only $5 less then doing both OB and protection. Waste of money. So, either I stay fully with him... or fully leave. It wont be half and half.

I don't know yet what is best. I'm having some problems recently with the pup, and I don't know if it's a good time to burn that bridge. But, at the same time... I don't want to continue to feel this way.... and I'm starting to feel like my dogs are getting no where. We are in a rut... not sure if it's me, the dogs, or if it's the situation.

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I would still go check out new places. You're going to get "show line" cracks everywhere. Take them as just that wise cracks. With the new pup, we all want to think our dog is extremely unique and we have to stay with this trainer because they know that line and so on. When you travel and find good trainers you realize there are many dogs just like it and those trainers have experience and the know how to work them properly.

I'm not saying your pup is not special or not a lot of dog, just saying that there are lots of trainers/clubs out there capable of working her. Give them a chance. Oh, there is a show dog in my SDA club that has every title through a P3 and now working on the police dog titles and the owner still gets the showline comments. Most of the time they are joking or don't really care. Don't let the fear of the unknown hold you back from finding a great club.

I was all over the place in this post so I hope it makes sense haha
I have no problem just going to meet people and seeing if we fit. I just don't have the patience for the showline cracks. It's annoying. At least here, I wasn't the only showline... and although, they are not advertised as being "great", they are still respected and trained the same. One reason I loved this group so much.

But, to be honest, the biggest reasons I'm held back from visiting other places is... 1: They don't answer anything. I tried for 2 years to contact two groups here... not a single answer or call in return. I emailed a few people, many times from each club. and 2: I can't afford a club. It's way too much with all the fees and two dogs. With my job, I sometimes can't go for a week or two... or sometimes need to miss a month.... due to needing money elsewhere. Being a hobby, this is the first to be cut back. Where I'm at now... it's pay when you go for just that one class. If you miss some.. no big deal, no money lost. No club fees, no helper fees, no added fees at all. Just class fee. It's affordable. It's also really close... so not much gas. All the clubs in this area are pretty far.

So I'm not sure if I can even afford to go elsewhere. It's a really crappy situation. I had it good... but, now all of that is going down the dumps. I'm afraid I'll have to quit... and do something else that the dogs will enjoy... but I really wont.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:57 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I, too, tried to call clubs and email them and got zero response. Was thinking I should attempt to do it again, and now I read this happened to you, too.
Maybe they don't need new members?
Maybe you and I should go there and surprise them ?
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:10 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Duke thinks it's bite work every time he's around. OB would be a waste of time.. all I would do is fight Duke the whole time.
I would definitely work on this though, you don't want that to become a habit regardless of where you are training. Ideally you want the dog to be OK with anyone (including the helpers) in the group or pretending to be a judge (so standing next to the dog during the out of motion exercises). It's also fairly common for some dogs to load up on a field because of blinds and the equipment. These are all just distractions that need to be worked through and ones that usually can only be dealt with in a club/training atmosphere.

I'm not sure if others are like this but I don't let my dogs do bitework without obedience. Even if we're in a hurry at training, or I'm making good progress on my own, if my dogs want protection work they need to demonstrate *something* in obedience. At some clubs this is a rule. I don't believe in training a dog in OB (or through BH) before starting protection like some people do, but I do believe that all phases in SchH are equally important and impact each other. The "picture" is not really complete without the dog being able to focus and be able to change gears/drives when appropriate.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I would definitely work on this though, you don't want that to become a habit regardless of where you are training. Ideally you want the dog to be OK with anyone (including the helpers) in the group or pretending to be a judge (so standing next to the dog during the out of motion exercises). It's also fairly common for some dogs to load up on a field because of blinds and the equipment. These are all just distractions that need to be worked through and ones that usually can only be dealt with in a club/training atmosphere.

I'm not sure if others are like this but I don't let my dogs do bitework without obedience. Even if we're in a hurry at training, or I'm making good progress on my own, if my dogs want protection work they need to demonstrate *something* in obedience. At some clubs this is a rule. I don't believe in training a dog in OB (or through BH) before starting protection like some people do, but I do believe that all phases in SchH are equally important and impact each other. The "picture" is not really complete without the dog being able to focus and be able to change gears/drives when appropriate.
It's not all the decoys, just our main one. He accidentally hurt Duke a while ago. And being that Duke runs on defense (there's prey drive, and we do work his prey drive... it's just not what he runs on). This made him not trust him. Every since then, once he's on the field Duke eye balls him. We do work on it every week and as of right now as far as we can get is the decoy in normal clothing, on the sidelines... Duke will take a toy or treat from him, and an occasionally pet... he doesn't bark or growl anymore. BUT, this would take away focus and I can work with that at home. I have plenty of distractions here and on the field. Not wasting my money to argue with him the whole time. Otherwise, Duke could careless... he's aloof and doesn't really care if there's any one else around. He's tested with gun shots, metal trash cans, the fun noodle things (for the pool), and whatever other random things people at training have found. The one decoy is our only problem distraction, and the only thing I ever have to argue with him about.... I'm not concerned. Everything with Duke is a slow process.... calm, happy, and stress free.

We're not trialing, I'm not titling him. This is all just for fun and for my dogs' sanity.

Also, my dogs do have to do OB beforehand. I believe in keeping it even too. I usually run them on the side, or pay for the class. At this point, I'm getting nothing out of the OB in class, and do the same thing on my own on the side. My friend spots for me, and it works the same. With Storm, I usually have some one help since she's a handful and I'm having a few problems with her.... which is why we also quit bite work for about 2 months with her.

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I, too, tried to call clubs and email them and got zero response. Was thinking I should attempt to do it again, and now I read this happened to you, too.
Maybe they don't need new members?
Maybe you and I should go there and surprise them ?
You're not the first person here that has told me this. Most of the people at training have tried to contact them with no answer... and we have others that had problems there with the people and quit. I'm not sure what their issue is. I got one answer of "Oh I'm not in this position anymore.. you want to contact _____ at this email _____"... I did a few times and even continued over two years with other members... not a single answer after that.

So Idk... how they ever get new members is beyond me.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:43 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Here's the situation with most clubs that I have been to (I don't train but I've visited a couple)...they seem to be on someone's personal property and just use some club fees to either pay a helper or cover part of the taxes on the grounds. Some are allowed to use land for free due to connections and just need to have their own equipment. Well, they have the equipment so they don't need anymore and so they don't really need the fees. The more members (especially novice ones), the longer you stand around waiting for a helper to do your own protection work, so why would the more experienced members want that?

I've also noticed at my obedience club that sometimes people that aren't serious about trialing get less attention. We have been working on this...but the fact of the matter is that when an instructor corrects a "pet" person for their dog not sitting straight, they get upset because they "don't care about straight sits." But the instructor is geared to training people for trialing, so after seeing no effort put forth into fixing what the instructor has been telling the person to do...they kind of give up on them (not saying this is happening to you since you clearly want a dog capable of trialing just that you won't). But its just natural...if you have 20 people in the club that are training. 19 of them want to trial, and 1 doesn't have any plans to, that 1 isn't going to get the attention that the other members do. It's just the way of loosely regulated dog clubs...without a written schedule of what will be accomplished in any given day/week/month, its hard to really gripe about some of that stuff.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I've also noticed at my obedience club that sometimes people that aren't serious about trialing get less attention. We have been working on this...but the fact of the matter is that when an instructor corrects a "pet" person for their dog not sitting straight, they get upset because they "don't care about straight sits." But the instructor is geared to training people for trialing, so after seeing no effort put forth into fixing what the instructor has been telling the person to do...they kind of give up on them (not saying this is happening to you since you clearly want a dog capable of trialing just that you won't). But its just natural...if you have 20 people in the club that are training. 19 of them want to trial, and 1 doesn't have any plans to, that 1 isn't going to get the attention that the other members do. It's just the way of loosely regulated dog clubs...without a written schedule of what will be accomplished in any given day/week/month, its hard to really gripe about some of that stuff.
Yeah I can sort of go with this. It's not just about trialing/titling but if you are not there to do the best your dog can do, then what is the point right? You don't HAVE to trial, but Schutzhund is Schutzhund and that involves learning all the exercises and doing them correctly and to the best of the dog's ability. I think most dogs are capable of being trained much farther than the owners think or have time/money for (I know mine are) and we just hate to see excuses made for the dog because he's never going to trial.

Also depending on the club, you may be expected to participate whether you enter or not. My club hosts two trials a year and I make sure to be there bringing part of the meal, selling raffle tickets, doing photography, and whatever I can offer to help out. This is probably why many clubs appear standoffish. It's something you either do or don't. You don't have to aim for a national level dog, but if you are in the club then you're expected to be there at least half the time and helping out when it's not your turn or you're not entered in the event.
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Here's the situation with most clubs that I have been to (I don't train but I've visited a couple)...they seem to be on someone's personal property and just use some club fees to either pay a helper or cover part of the taxes on the grounds. Some are allowed to use land for free due to connections and just need to have their own equipment. Well, they have the equipment so they don't need anymore and so they don't really need the fees. The more members (especially novice ones), the longer you stand around waiting for a helper to do your own protection work, so why would the more experienced members want that?

I've also noticed at my obedience club that sometimes people that aren't serious about trialing get less attention. We have been working on this...but the fact of the matter is that when an instructor corrects a "pet" person for their dog not sitting straight, they get upset because they "don't care about straight sits." But the instructor is geared to training people for trialing, so after seeing no effort put forth into fixing what the instructor has been telling the person to do...they kind of give up on them (not saying this is happening to you since you clearly want a dog capable of trialing just that you won't). But its just natural...if you have 20 people in the club that are training. 19 of them want to trial, and 1 doesn't have any plans to, that 1 isn't going to get the attention that the other members do. It's just the way of loosely regulated dog clubs...without a written schedule of what will be accomplished in any given day/week/month, its hard to really gripe about some of that stuff.
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Yeah I can sort of go with this. It's not just about trialing/titling but if you are not there to do the best your dog can do, then what is the point right? You don't HAVE to trial, but Schutzhund is Schutzhund and that involves learning all the exercises and doing them correctly and to the best of the dog's ability. I think most dogs are capable of being trained much farther than the owners think or have time/money for (I know mine are) and we just hate to see excuses made for the dog because he's never going to trial.

Also depending on the club, you may be expected to participate whether you enter or not. My club hosts two trials a year and I make sure to be there bringing part of the meal, selling raffle tickets, doing photography, and whatever I can offer to help out. This is probably why many clubs appear standoffish. It's something you either do or don't. You don't have to aim for a national level dog, but if you are in the club then you're expected to be there at least half the time and helping out when it's not your turn or you're not entered in the event.
You are absolutely correct... why waste their time?... However, Duke may not be trialing or title material... But Storm is. I got her FOR that. Being that she is from HIS breeding program, and one that was on list to watch mature (possible future breeding prospect that he was originally going to keep himself)..... You would think he would take her training more serious . I've always been serious with her.. and I was with Duke too. I wanted at least a BH with him... but with all the things that have happened, how I've been let down by my trainer and seeing that my dog can't really do that level.... I've given up that idea for now. So now we just go for fun. It's still correct, and I still want to keep learning... especially with bringing up Storm. It's just not at the same stress level and no rushing. Duke can't rush anyways, he locks up if too much stress is put on him. To me... the dog doesn't notice if it has a BH or IPO1... they live for the day and just have fun. He has fun still... so it was worth it for me. I just like to see my dogs happy.

Storm on the other hand..... IS a dog that NEEDS a job and she needs training. I am very serious with her, and I bought her from my trainer for my sporting dog. Even with being serious... I'm still getting no attention during training. This training group is full of people who just go for fun. Barely anyone trials. So this shouldn't be an issue anyways.

I see a LOT of this mentality at other places though when we see them out at events. It IS how those clubs are because their name depends on those who DO trial and how well they do. So those that don't do it, or are not 100% dedicated to getting the best numbers at trials..... are ignored or just simply not allowed to join. Being a hobby, I feel like I may fall into this category in their eyes. This has nothing to do with my love for the sport, or my dedication. I've shown up to training no matter what... only missing 3 days since I started back in April of last year. I even worked all of black friday and yet still showed up at training right after and all that weekend and worked both of my dogs and even helped with some of the others there. I take pictures for everyone every class and post them for everyone to download, I still help out and do what I can. But this is not something you can tell by just meeting me.... it's something you see after a while. So I feel like I wouldn't be accepted into any of them, even if I could afford the fees.

It's this mentality that I don't really like about clubs... I understand why they think that way, and it makes sense when numbers are crucial... but I'm afraid we wouldn't share the same thought on this. Back when I showed horses, it was a bit different, I was BIG into competition and scores.... but with my dogs... it's different. Maybe that will change as Storm grows up.
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:06 PM   #20 (permalink)
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It sounds like you don't have very good club options. What you describe has not been the norm for me "up here". What about traveling to a good club once a month, and training with a more local group (even if they aren't the greatest) the rest of the time?

Clubs shouldn't be making snap judgments about prospective members. I trained two dogs with a club for almost 6 months before I was voted on as a member.
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