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Old 12-10-2012, 08:27 PM   #51 (permalink)
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So, let me get this straight, it's ok to physically abuse a seven year old child because of something the child said?

If a parent did the same thing to the child, would children services visit them?

How come is it that we have people responsible for children who cannot manage a seven year old?

My nieces are six, well one is, the other will be in about a month. A year or two will not make a difference. I can handle six and eight year old children without slamming them into walls. Last I heard was that bus drivers (all we have out here, no monitors) can refuse to drive a child if they do not behave on the bus. Then the parents have to find other arrangements to get the child to school. This makes the parents use whatever controls they have to get the desired behavior out of their kid, or they will have to drive their kid to school indefinitely.

Some kids do have issues. I get that. But adults put in charge of them ought to be able to deal with them, at least at age seven without adding to the violence. If the kid was 13 or 14, it would be a whole other story, but seven? If you can't handle a seven year old, maybe its time to retire.

I guess I just do not think physical violence done in the heat of a situation is appropriate or effective to manage verbal disobedience. If the child in any way struck another child or adult, then whatever force necessary to deal effectively with the situation would make sense. Giving the child an appointment with the principle and the principle's paddle would be fine too (in my opinion), then it would not have been the immediate gratification of getting under the monitor's skin, getting pushed around by her, negative attention is attention, and he would have to think about it until he got to his appointment, much more effective, even if it is physical punishment. Also, you would see both parents, and the administration backing up the monitor's actions.

Often times kids with behavioral issues have learning issues as well. Taking behavior issues up the ladder ensures that if there is a pattern, that might be addressed, the child might be assigned to some type of behavior-issue classroom, designed for students who don't do well in general population, with a smaller child/teacher ratio and generally someone who has experience and training in managing learning and behavior issues in kids.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:34 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Sue, that is what I'm saying, the child clearly has issues....not deserving being physically thrown though I can see someone possibly restraining him for his own safety. There was a case about 8 yrs ago where a boy was physically restrained and suffocated to death the first few weeks of school. Kids do have problems...they try to main-stream them but it doesn't work for all of them of course.
In my church there is a boy with autism and he acts out often just because the environment is way too much for him. His parents are loving and know his limits. As he ages, it has been getting worse.
I have so much compassion for these parents(and the kids) with children who have these problems.
But, it is up to the parents to keep their kids safe, where ever whenever and however they have to.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:39 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Ok, just saw the video, no way. If you did that to your own 7 year old kid, people would be calling children services. I don't care what the kid did, an adult should not have responded that way.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:45 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I will never in a million years understand why teachers punish all their students in a class for a few unruly kids!!? It hurts the good ones and the others ones don't give a hoot anyhow! I wonder what the logic is behind this really???
To go back to this, it is a method called positive peer pressure, and it can be used to help when a small group of kids are undermining classroom behavior. It can definitely work, and when I worked with juvenile delinquents (in an intensive treatment unit) we used it with great success. You just have to use it as one of your tools, not the only one, but if you remember not being able to leave the room until the line was quiet, that is what was being done.

Positive peer pressure: the effects of peer monitoring on children's disruptive behavior.

Teaching/working in schools is great and it is awful. Depends on how it balances out but the demands are definitely different - some good, some bad.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:46 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Sue, that is what I'm saying, the child clearly has issues....not deserving being physically thrown though I can see someone possibly restraining him for his own safety. There was a case about 8 yrs ago where a boy was physically restrained and suffocated to death the first few weeks of school. Kids do have problems...they try to main-stream them but it doesn't work for all of them of course.
In my church there is a boy with autism and he acts out often just because the environment is way too much for him. His parents are loving and know his limits. As he ages, it has been getting worse.
I have so much compassion for these parents(and the kids) with children who have these problems.
But, it is up to the parents to keep their kids safe, where ever whenever and however they have to.
My cousin is autistic and violent. He often beat up his teachers. He was in special schools his whole life, and is now in a home for retarded men, because he is violent, withdrawn, is not accountable for his actions, and must be controlled. Sad, yes.

I don't know what more a mother can do to protect her child, if she loads him on the bus. If the child doesn't belong in that school, in that format, then doesn't that have to come from the school. I mean, it costs a lot of money to put kids in special schools, and I think that the way those are funded and paid for is in part through either insurance or government, which suggests that it has to be more than just Mom saying her kid is a brat and needs to go to a behavior-intensive school.

Or maybe I am wrong.

My cousin was on SSI due to the disability and his father died when he (the father) was 25, kid was two, so they had Social Security as an income, but certainly not enough to pay tuition for special schools. I am not sure how they placed him where they did, who was involved with that decision.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:04 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN View Post
To go back to this, it is a method called positive peer pressure, and it can be used to help when a small group of kids are undermining classroom behavior. It can definitely work, and when I worked with juvenile delinquents (in an intensive treatment unit) we used it with great success. You just have to use it as one of your tools, not the only one, but if you remember not being able to leave the room until the line was quiet, that is what was being done.

Positive peer pressure: the effects of peer monitoring on children's disruptive behavior.

Teaching/working in schools is great and it is awful. Depends on how it balances out but the demands are definitely different - some good, some bad.
My SIL has 9 kids......all fifteen to eighteen months apart and I see them using this method in their family also. Older kids keeping younger kids in line and responsible for their actions as they know the repercussions effect the family as a whole. These kids are FANTASTIC kids....just a joy to have around....so it works for them in their situation also.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:45 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Sue I'm not going to comment on that particular case because it's not appropriate. What the two videos show is not the whole story. I'm not condoning what the woman did (and I haven't watched the videos, don't need to). Beyond that it's not really a public matter because the public doesn't know all the facts.

I will say that until you've had to deal with a child that is basically a sociopath it's really easy to say a 7 year old can't put himself and others in extreme danger and that it should be easy enough for adults to intervene. Some of the criticisms in this thread already illustrate the very reason why most times teachers and admin cannot intervene sooner - because people threaten to sue and call cops and call CPS if anyone lays a hand on a kid for any reason. You would not believe what parents insist for their child when it's so opposite of what the child really needs but as illustrated in this thread, pretty much anything a parent demands, goes, even when the teacher is the one with 10 years of education and more years of experience in the field. Most parents are *not* demanding that their kid be in a special school; most parents demand the opposite - that their kid is normal and needs to be in a normal classroom where the kid consistently puts himself and others at risk. There's a big difference between being an advocate for your child and just plain being crazy. My mom has to get several kids off the bus at her daycare because they are in 5-point harnesses on the bus but most parents would rather insist their kid is "just being a kid" and doesn't have problems then are willing to actually deal with the problems so their kid is safe and can be educated.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:12 AM   #58 (permalink)
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if there is a trend here i'm glad i wont be around to see the kids of these kids.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:36 AM   #59 (permalink)
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LOL I'm always appalled at how much time every evening my husband spends dealing with parents who are upset over the most ridiculous things. You'd think they'd want him to spend time, you know, grading their child's work and preparing lessons but instead they expect him to Facebook chat about why someone touched their child during a game of TAG and stuff like that. His most recent issue is that all the kids tattle on everyone, for anything at all. He said one kid was tattling because another kid kicked a ball at him....while they were playing dodgeball kickball (with a mushy soft ball and they already are not allowed to keep score).
Do you have a kid? I have never done that but that seems
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:44 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Sue I'm not going to comment on that particular case because it's not appropriate. What the two videos show is not the whole story. I'm not condoning what the woman did (and I haven't watched the videos, don't need to). Beyond that it's not really a public matter because the public doesn't know all the facts.

I will say that until you've had to deal with a child that is basically a sociopath it's really easy to say a 7 year old can't put himself and others in extreme danger and that it should be easy enough for adults to intervene. Some of the criticisms in this thread already illustrate the very reason why most times teachers and admin cannot intervene sooner - because people threaten to sue and call cops and call CPS if anyone lays a hand on a kid for any reason. You would not believe what parents insist for their child when it's so opposite of what the child really needs but as illustrated in this thread, pretty much anything a parent demands, goes, even when the teacher is the one with 10 years of education and more years of experience in the field. Most parents are *not* demanding that their kid be in a special school; most parents demand the opposite - that their kid is normal and needs to be in a normal classroom where the kid consistently puts himself and others at risk. There's a big difference between being an advocate for your child and just plain being crazy. My mom has to get several kids off the bus at her daycare because they are in 5-point harnesses on the bus but most parents would rather insist their kid is "just being a kid" and doesn't have problems then are willing to actually deal with the problems so their kid is safe and can be educated.
10 years of education? Really? I mean, out here it takes a BS degree and you can get one in 3 if you cram, 4 if you are average, and maybe 5 if you go for a Master's too. There are not a lot of doctors in education save at the university level.

As for the vid of the kid on the bus, that was enough. Sorry, I really don't care about what was behind slamming the kid into the bus windows and wall, she picked him up and threw him into the wall. No way. There is just nothing you can say to justify that crap. And bus monitors do not have 10 years of education, unless you are counting grade school and high school.

When my mother was diagnosed with cancer, her brother's wife came out and she stopped in the parking lot and we were talking, and she wanted for me to express my feelings about it. I actually considered what I said. This was my mother's brother's second wife, and it's not like I knew her when I was a kid or anything. We weren't close, she was only about 4 years older than me.

But she was an unknown quantity and I thought about it, and I said that I wished the doctor had ordered a colonoscopy. That was it. She argued with me. She told me they did. She told me my parents talk to her about stuff like that -- really???? She was furious that I did not take it back.

She went away and called me that night and tried to get me to recant. Then she said she was my aunt and I should not have talked to her that way. Mom has been cancer free for about 7 years, so I was way into my thirties when this happened. She also told my parents that I screamed and yelled at her and chased her down the road. They were both out on the porch during our conversation. They would have saw that, if it had happened.

Anyway, I realized later that night what the issue was. Her husband is a doctor and she is a nurse. She literally could not take criticism at all of someone in their field.

Let's face it, there are a LOT of doctors out there that aren't the cream of the crop, with a whole lot more education than teachers. There are teachers that are should not be teachers. There are bus monitors that shouldn't be bus monitors. There are breeders who should not be breeders. There are veterinarians that should not be veterinarians. There are police officers that should not be police officers.

I can understand giving the benefit of the doubt, and trying to look at the whole of information before tarring and feathering someone. But sometimes, there is just no scenarios that can justify some things. And throwing a 7 year old into a wall is one of them.

Yeh, my aunt is crazy. It was kind of an extreme example.

There are tons of teachers out there. And tons of school employees out there. With that population of people you are going to have a percentage that aren't so great. Those people do not need to be defended. They need to be exposed and removed from teaching. I am talking about people who are actually abusive, not people who need to be moved to a different class or given some coaching.

I think with teachers, and with school employees, it is tougher because we CAN'T be there every moment to ensure that our kids are not being mistreated. And even if a seven year old is a future anti-social sociopath, he is no match for an adult.
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