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What eliminates a dog from breeding?

23K views 160 replies 35 participants last post by  Hineni7 
#1 ·
On another thread someone felt that things like EPI, allergies, back issues, etc, were things that some breeders discard when breeding if they can get one or two good dogs.
My question: When a breeder has a pup from their breeding or a dog they know has produced one of these things, should they;
1) eliminate the dog from breeding
2) if use the dog again use a complete outcross
3) repeat the breeding to see if it's a fluke
I'm curious as to perspectives
 
#2 ·
It depends. First time breeding? If so, and it's a great breed worthy dog, I'd be tempted to try again after further research. Is it a high ratio of puppies afflicted? If its 5 afflicted to 1 healthy, I'd be looking at my combination of dam and sire, their siblings and puppies that we're thrown by them.
I'm far from a breeder, but I feel there is a lot to look at if there​ is an issue cropping up.
There is so much to breeding. I've seen where someone said that a bitch that kills puppies should never be bred
Yet aren't some of the harder bitches out there been known to kill their puppies?
 
#3 ·
I have a teen dog who had terrible pano, but is otherwise sound and has a good temperament for my needs. He is a bit friendly for a WL dog but I like that. The breeder knows she has some pano in her lines, but if she stopped breeding any dog that might get it, she would lose all the good qualities her dogs have. He comes from excellent lines. His pedigree has many known good breeders.

I think allergies can come from other causes besides genetics. I would not buy a dog with EPI in the lines or with structural problems if I knew about them.

Allergies are annoying and destructive but can be managed.
 
#4 ·
Thx, Cloudpump....very insightful answer,imo.
I think pano is something most dogs grow out of and rarely occurs after 2 years. As for good temperament for my needs, how does that fit with the standard? Just curious:smile2:
C'mon folks, I see so many opinions given when somebody comes on and says they want to breed their dogs, I'm curious as to the breeding knowledge that is basis for all of the opinions given.
 
#7 ·
Thx, Cloudpump....very insightful answer,imo.
I think pano is something most dogs grow out of and rarely occurs after 2 years. As for good temperament for my needs, how does that fit with the standard? Just curious

C'mon folks, I see so many opinions given when somebody comes on and says they want to breed their dogs, I'm curious as to the breeding knowledge that is basis for all of the opinions given.
I also think pano isn't something to really use as a deterrent for breeding but should be considered/made note of in the overall picture for future.
 
#5 ·
As a buyer and not a breeder, I would want to see the breeder do a bit of research if there was a issue brought forth from one of their puppies. Reach out to other owners who own dogs from both sure and dam (pairings and separately used).

If there was a pattern of illness or bad temperament, then that pair or individual dog should be eliminated from breeding.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Those who would breed a dog with allergies don't understand just how devastating allergies can be!

I have an e-friend who owns a beagle with severe allergies. Over the years she's had him, it has cost here THOUSANDS of dollars to keep him healthy. She has nearly had him die several times due to the problems.

The breeder confesses his dad had problems too, and has produced other severely allergic pups.

I have a GSD female that seems to be sensitive to chicken, and has gunky ears. Her father had chronic ear problems too. In a case of something so mild, I would still breed. What knocked her out of the breeding pool was one mildly dysplastic hip!

I was surprised at the number of people who told me "Oh, I STILL would have bred her!" (because she has so many V and VA rated dogs in her pedigree.) :rolleyes2:

What makes and owner say 'no' is different for everyone. The breeder who bred my female's mom is a very honest, reputable person. She had an ASL dog that did very well at Westminister (BOB, I think?) but after his big win, he bloated and nearly died. I mentioned him on another messageboard, and a number of people criticized her for breeding a dog that might carry bloat!

I have yet to hear of any studies that suggest bloat is inherited, other than large dogs with deep chests are the most likely to bloat. In that case, we should remove ALL large, deep-chested dogs (Danes, GSDs, greyhounds, etc.) from the breeding pool!
 
#9 · (Edited)
I imported a young bitch years ago, popular sire.....finished her to Sch3, KKL ...nice nice working female, awesome long bite, beautiful attentive obedience....

Tried to breed once with frozen at Dr. Hutchinsons, did not take....the Sch 3 KKL male I owned was not producing good enough swimmers on examination, and then I bred her to a friends Sch 3 KKL Yoshey son....outside tie....delivered 3 live pups, 1 dead.... Ended up with 2 dwarfs. About $7000-8000 down the tubes. Female spayed and given away to an awesome pet home where she did agility and went to work at a court (owner was a local magistrate) every day until she passed...

What will wash out a dog for breeding for me ??? 1st and foremost - bad nerves. I watched a hectic, high drive female (imported, untitled) run off the field to kennel when corrected for being dirty more than once (electric could not get her back, water spit in her face, allowed her self to be dragged back)....would have spayed her and placed her. Has had a couple of litters since. IPO2 with 70s in protection. I also would not breed to a dog who had surgery for bloat even once, or who had to have back surgery.

I also am not going to use a dog - male or female with heavy backmassing on popular sires "known" or reputed to produce orthopedic issues or any temperament or health issue. Some linebreeding or backmassing is unavoidable - the gene pool is only so big. But to intentionally do a close one, I need to know the dogs personally or have good information from people I trust.

Statistically, there are going to be pups with HD....If minimal and not severe, I am not going to throw a female out of the gene pool. I am going to health test and use health testing in the process of matching up dogs. I am going to watch trends in what bloodlines produce issues....I stay away from some very popular widely used lines due to high incidences of issues. And so the sires I normally use/choose are not the "flavor of the month" but I am happy with the production and have produced some very very nice working pups owned by people who are not specifically looking for pups by a popular sire.

If I know a sire has produced EPI or another serious issue - I want to study the pedigree of the affected dog.....is there heavy backmassing on any certain dog??? I also look at other pedigrees where I know the same issue was produced for similarities. What does the pedigree combination give me in that regard with my female??? If it is going to be similar, I would not do the breeding, if it is vastly different, then I would still consider the dog.

Washing out a dog from breeding is something most people will not do......one breeder I know in the SE would rather cull puppies than wash out a female who produces them. Me - I would have a horrible time culling a puppy in the same manner - so I would not breed a female who was nervy and would wash her out into a spay and pet home.
 
#10 ·
I imported a young bitch years ago, popular sire.....finished her to Sch3, KKL ...nice nice working female, awesome long bite, beautiful attentive obedience....

Tried to breed once with frozen at Dr. Hutchinsons, did not take....the Sch 3 KKL male I owned was not producing good enough swimmers on examination, and then I bred her to a friends Sch 3 KKL Yoshey son....outside tie....delivered 3 live pups, 1 dead.... Ended up with 2 dwarfs. About $7000-8000 down the tubes. Female spayed and given away to an awesome pet home where she did agility and went to work at a court (owner was a local magistrate) every day until she passed...

What will wash out a dog for breeding for me ??? 1st and foremost - bad nerves. I watched a hectic, high drive female (imported, untitled) run off the field to kennel when corrected for being dirty more than once (electric could not get her back, water spit in her face, allowed her self to be dragged back)....would have spayed her and placed her. Has had a couple of litters since. IPO2 with 70s in protection. I also would not breed to a dog who had surgery for bloat even once, or who had to have back surgery.

I also am not going to use a dog - male or female with heavy backmassing on popular sires "known" or reputed to produce orthopedic issues or any temperament or health issue. Some linebreeding or backmassing is unavoidable - the gene pool is only so big. But to intentionally do a close one, I need to know the dogs personally or have good information from people I trust.

Statistically, there are going to be pups with HD....If minimal and not severe, I am not going to throw a female out of the gene pool. I am going to health test and use health testing in the process of matching up dogs. I am going to watch trends in what bloodlines produce issues....I stay away from some very popular widely used lines due to high incidences of issues. And so the sires I normally use/choose are not the "flavor of the month" but I am happy with the production and have produced some very very nice working pups owned by people who are not specifically looking for pups by a popular sire.

If I know a sire has produced EPI or another serious issue - I want to study the pedigree of the affected dog.....is there heavy backmassing on any certain dog??? I also look at other pedigrees where I know the same issue was produced for similarities. What does the pedigree combination give me in that regard with my female??? If it is going to be similar, I would not do the breeding, if it is vastly different, then I would still consider the dog.

Washing out a dog from breeding is something most people will not do......one breeder I know in the SE would rather cull puppies than wash out a female who produces them. Me - I would have a horrible time culling a puppy in the same manner - so I would not breed a female who was nervy and would wash her out into a spay and pet home.
I have a few questions about what I bolded... you say you would not breed to a dog who had to have back surgery. If that dog needed surgery due to injury, does that change things for you at all? Why or why not? I'm currently trying to wrap my head around the whole back injury thing, so your input will be much appreciated.

And to the second bolded statement... how nervy is this hypothetical bitch you are placing in a pet home? Because that doesn't seem like a great thing to do, IMO. Is this just common practice? To pass the nervy dogs off to pet people? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, it's great that you wouldn't breed her, because the chance of nervy puppies would be high. And you're right, a lot of breeders wouldn't do that.
 
#11 · (Edited)
the nervy bitch? depends on the degree of nervy - the one I saw that was titled minimally and bred??? she could not take pressure at all....she would have been fine in an AKC obedience or agility home - but she was not breedworthy IMO - sure she will produce some pups that are OK and even will title and then be bred - but the nerviness continues to be passed on through the one that carries it but does not express it....too many people think this is acceptable...there are plenty of females around without this problem to waste your time and other peoples money producing this generation after generation IMO...if the bitch was as nervy as some in rescue that get discussed - sometimes it is kinder to let them go than make them live a life in terror and fear....but ones that bad are not as common in WL breedings.....saw one in ASL from MAJOR well known kennel 15 years ago....they bred her a few times anyway because of movement - very very very sad for that female (trembled, tried to hide or cowered down when approached)....would barely let herself be touched except by owner....but wow the movement - so breed her (disgusted sarcasm smiley if I had one)...I saw one female quite a bit, an acquaintance owned the littermate or full sibling who did not express bad nerves....the sound sister produced a few very nervy pups however, and he had no problem culling....most Americans will not cull like that breeder.

the back surgery???? look at it this way - if 100 dogs will undergo the same pressures physically - and only 10 end up needing surgery because of it and you look at their pedigrees and 9 of those 10 are similar in pedigree??? Those are the ones so under discussion and the work excuse is just that....I was aware of this and heard the same excuse over and over many years ago in Europe while traveling.....a well known breeder judge discussed it at dinner a few weeks ago....same dogs, same lines......problem is breeders priorities - to get that rockstar puppy they find it an acceptable risk....THAT is the bottom line....what a breeder considers acceptable risk to reward ratio.

Lee
 
#12 ·
THAT is the bottom line....what a breeder considers acceptable risk to reward ratio.

Well said, Wolfstraum! And all too often, as in your example, the breeder values ribbons over producing sound dogs.

So, you feel that certain lines are more likely to bloat? Is this from personal experience? I know that anxious dogs are more likely to bloat, but other than the deep chest/large body thing, that's the only inheritable characteristic I can think of which would predispose a dog to bloat.

Risk Factors for Canine Bloat - TUFTSBG2003 - VIN
 
#13 ·
Bloat is one that is more ambiguous IMO.....certainly tied to conformation type - and conformation type tied to genetics....sort of like colic in horses....many are more management related than genetics...but still management ties into personality ties into genetics.

Would I breed to a dog who bloated?? Maybe - not sure......would not breed to a dog or buy a puppy from a dog who bloated 3 or 4 times! Management????? Genetics????? Without a clear and total background history - why take a chance? There are so many males of very very similar backgrounds and common pedigrees, would probably move on....

I have been very very lucky - I started off in the breed with dogs by chance who ended up genetically very healthy and free of most common lines, even though I have had dogs with the more common lines....but over all lucky with them as well....in part due to a German koermeister who gave me some very very sound advice in the beginning at my first Koer and a few times afterwards. Unpopular advice LOL LOL but has proved to be insightful as I learned more and more through the years.


Lee
 
#18 ·
good question

"n 2006, the Sieger was a dog that had failed the courage test at a prior BSZS, and at least half of his adult offspring did very unconvincing jobs in their own bitework. The vice-sieger was this dog's father, who has not proven to be much better in either his own work or in producing brave dogs. :

the Sieger show - "the" big one that influences breedings

from Grunfeld German Shepherds
 
#19 ·
I wouldn't breed an affected dog. A dog with EPI or something else that is generally inherited, if the dog was diagnosed at the time of breeding.

But if a sire/dam combination produced the condition, what does that do to your breeding choices.

No critter is perfect. We make decisions every day. If you had a bitch that produced 2-3 serious defects in one litter, and she was bred to a dog that was a good producer, with little or no issues like that, of course, spay the bitch and put her in a pet home. But breeding isn't always so cut and dried. Over the course of years, you are going to produce some issues. What is too much, what is too many to make you change your breeding choices.

If you had a dog that produced 28 puppies in four litters, using 2 bitches, and 1 of them had a heart problem. Do you stop breeding him, and not breed to any of the pups you kept out of him to go forward? How can you be sure that another pup you pick up will not produce something even worse?

I think you listen to your puppy buyers and thank them for information they give you on your puppies. And you build a case with each dog. If you know that out of 44 puppies, the dog produced one with EPI, and 2 with heart issues, and one with HD, you then decide whether or not you will breed to his unaffected puppies. And choices in breeding where you are going to line breed -- this information is extremely important, because then you are putting possible carriers on both side of the equation, increasing the possibilities of puppies being affected.

All of that requires breeding for the future, holding back puppies, having 3-4 generations of a line at any time. Sometime you are going to make a choice and see how it plays out.
 
#21 ·
I do too.....there were some members maybe 10-12 years ago......one girl had a dog wiht EPI, dam had EPI and breeder kept breeding her even though he was told....he just did not care....dam was not treated and died young....those lines still floating around in that area....

Lee
 
#23 ·
Another condition I'd like to add to the discussion -- Mega-Esophagus.

I'm very sure there's a breeder in my area throwing mega-E pups -- we seem to have a slow trickle of calls that come into the rescue when the condition presents, and the adolescent either gets dumped at a shelter or a local vet clinic by the buyer because the breeder wouldn't take it back. Not all mega-E is genetic, but a lot of it is.
 
#24 ·
I have zero to contribute, but this is another awesome thread. Lots to think about and can help you reflect on what kind of research you should do before you get a dog and from who. I spent a few hours reading the other "Iceberg Breeders" thread too.
 
#25 ·
Is there a button somewhere to auto-subscribe to every thread started by Cliff? There really should be, as they all turn out to be incredibly interesting, and educational discussions.

Nothing to add, other than to say thanks to all for an informative read!
 
#27 ·
I get notifications on a couple of breeder fb pages. One breeder that I have seen recommended on this forum seems to have a whole lot of ' my dog is limping. What do you recommend? ' from people with dogs from their breeding.
Makes me a bit curious. I have to say it would not be a breeder I would recommend without some serious answers.
 
#30 ·
I would really like to thank Wolfstraum for the depth of her post. This is the kind of thinking,( discriminate) that I feel benefits the breed. I also agree with weak nerves being the biggest non starter for me. To me weak nerves and genetic illnesses are pathways to ruination of the breed. Many illnesses,( like giarda, coat issues, mange, allergies, etc, ), are activated by stress! Stress is a definite by-product of weak nerves.....soooo, it would stand to reason that knowledgeable breeders would not touch a weak nerves dog for breeding under any circumstances. But what about things like missing testicles, an ear that doesn't stand, or very light eyes, ???
 
#31 ·
What about things like missing testicles, an ear that doesn't stand, very light eyes?

Well, I think it was Chris Wild that wrote a post, specifically on EPI, but it transfers in looking at the whole dog. Not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

These things above will not effect the dog's function as a pet. If one were to occur in an otherwise nice litter, they wouldn't be much cause for concern, BUT, for the show breeders, a drop dead beautiful, stellar pup from this litter might be a carrier for the trait that it was not affected. And, bred back into its own line, even more pups could be affected. Now you have a champion dog that is producing retained testicles, or floppy ears. Of course a lot of show breeders help their pups' ears stand as a matter of course.

Other than the testicle, these are mostly aesthetic qualities. I would be much more concerned about EPI, or Mega E, or bloat. Producing health issues is something that sooner or later is going to happen. And you have to then make choices, given the best information available.

If you wait until you are ready, you will probably never have children, and you cannot wait until your dog/bitch prove their longevity to begin to produce progeny. And this is where having people who have been breeding for a while, experienced with the lines actually is worth more than other factors. You don't gain generations worth of knowledge within the lines by reading books and researching. You have to have the dogs, and you have to make choices, and see how things play out. This is something that can't be learned wholly from books. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty, and then you have to learn and adjust.
 
#32 ·
I brought a new male into the program and then washed him out because he introduced panosteitis into lines that were tried true and tested and had never had pano pups before .

what a shame . seriously . a loss , as this male and of course the dams produced stunningly handsome correct conformation and good temperament and workability , - "bomb proof".

two sons , Stevie and Quincy , in honor of (Wonder and Jones) , experienced a furnace explosion which blew the cover plate across the room and filled the room with black smoke. I was in the kitchen directly above the furnace/laundry room and felt the floor raise up .

I moved so fast I just about fell down the staircase -- expecting to find the worst . Opened the door - couldn't see anything for the "smoke" . Slid the sliding gate to walk into room and almost tripped. Here were these two young 4 or 5 month old black pups right there to greet me , tail wagging as if nothing happened.

got every thing settled with the pups - called furnace repair emergency service -- found out that there had been a tiny pinhole prick that allowed fuel to spray out and when there was enough accumulation and the furnace ignited so did the fuel in the box - bam
took three days to wash and power wash the hard surfaces, ceiling, floor and walls .

a few days later the pups could enjoy the room again as a hang out area during this very wet and cold spring .

I thought there would be hesitation - some bad memory . No . Nothing . Happy happy pups .

BUT by the time they were 6 or 7 months each one had bouts of severe pano . Willing - but incapable . Literally like limp dish rags. The curious thing is that each one would be identical as to the limb that was bothering them.
Put into adjoining pens it was like looking through a steroscope. Each one had right leg up -- days later each one had
left rear leg up . And so it went for months and months .
During the good times and the LE trainers would visit to see progress they were stars - just like their name sakes - super stars .
And then they would be flattened out again.
I saw this through till they were over a year of age . I removed them from consideration for a working dog because even though things looked good , they could be waylaid by the rigors of certification training and set bac a handler and a department and even then could be waylaid in the first months of being deployed .

While all this was going on - the sire was NOT bred .
The sire and the two sons were removed and sold .

NO pano -- before or since .

Cliff said -- Many illnesses,( like giarda, coat issues, mange, allergies, etc, ), are activated by stress! Stress is a definite by-product of weak nerves.

I am forgiving of weak nerves. Giardia and coccidiosis and lyme and heart worm are parasitic , not congenital and not genetic - but environment , habitat , in an ever increasingly hostile , and post anti biotic world .
Mange can be summoned by severe nutritional deficiency , over vaccination (and other things we pump into dogs) , being born to a sub par , deprived dam . Allergies - how many are true allergies - not as many as you would think -- not if you read the rigorous scientific papers and the cutting edge discoveries shared at microbiome conventions .
Food sensitivities -- promoted when there is disruption or damage to the intestines thanks to antibiotic use , parasites, vaccinations etc.
 
#34 ·
I wish they would look deeper into pano. I heard there was a study once with a bunch of dogs, on a wormer, albon. They found a large percentage of the test dogs were currently affected with pano. Decided to go ahead with the study as it would not bother the dogs. All the pano dogs recovered from the pano and did not have a reoccurrence after treated with albon.

Could Pano be caused by some form of parasite or infection that is not being effectively treated? And could this be why often several dogs in a kennel are affected concurrently?

Since I am not breeding working dogs, and pano is generally self-limiting and something that most dogs do grow out of, I probably would not make it a make or break issue when it comes to whether or not to breed. It would depend on the severity and the duration of the issue, in the stud dog and in the progeny of the stud dog. If a stud dog had a bout of pano at say, 8 months that was totally gone at 9 months, and never reoccurred, but then produced puppies that had problems throughout growing, and possibly later on, then yeah I might retire that stud dog.
 
#35 ·
I wish we had more pano research too. The one dog that I had that had it severely as a pup ended up with osteosarcoma as a senior, with the bone tumor forming exactly where I remember a pano lesion had been spotted in a forelimb xray when he was a pup. Exactly the same spot! Coincidence? Perhaps, but I'm suspicious. We know inflammation leads to cascading problems, so there's no reason to think bone inflammation is innocuous.
 
#36 ·
Carmen, when it comes to weak nerves, I am not forgiving for breeding! I have found that dogs with weak nerves do not handle stress well. Plus it's easy to acquire, but insidious to eliminate. Furthermore, it so severely restricts the breeding options in an already limited quality gene pool; that it is a total non starter for me.
I agree with your environmental and vaccine thoughts, I also agree that nutrition is also major player in problems in dogs in general.
So how do we circumvent some of these items, especially via breeding choices?
 
#37 ·
so true , Cliff so true -- weak nerves are the scurge -- not good for work , not good for pet.

look for and insist on pups that adapt and cope .
I take my 8 week olds out for a ride - stop at the coffee shop , pup under arm , plunk
him on the sidewalk and start to move -- traffic and pedestrians
the pup can take a few seconds to get his bearing and then he moves on with me
I need to only go 20 feet - pick him up under arm , put him in crate in the car - go
for a take out coffee -drive on a bit -- to another site with other stimulation - repeat.
data collected.
no rewards or bribes - just observation on what is there by nature -- that is what you have to work with

the breed needs bold and secure dogs

do not breed a female (especially) if there is not a genuine rugged healthiness .

the breed needs natural hardiness - some people don't even know what that looks like
anymore --

wobbly movement , lack of co ordination the puppy ganglies -- should not be .

you breed for athletic dogs , you can stimulate neural connections , you can test for
neural soundness --

if a dog , who has been insinuated into the breed because he is "the" popular stud and he dies young and without explanation - then there should have been a medical explanation .

now there are dogs linebred on him running around. how does that help , how can it get better

eliminate dogs with spinal stenosis .

elminate dogs with poor ligament and cartilage integrity , excessive angulation
no dogs that walk on their pasterns - or hocks

understand what good functional conformation is .
 
#44 ·
I have had one dog with many bouts of Panosteitis. I had her on Nutro at the time, and then decided to switch up her nutrition(this was in 2006, so during the beginning of the recalls). Raw diet didn't stop her Pano, though, she was/is very large in structure for a female, 26" and 90#. I don't see her diet(which I researched before putting her on raw) playing into structure, but it may have accelerated her growth along with spaying early at 6 months. Hindsight... I don't think Pano is always genetic.

There are many things that may play into it. And thankfully it does go away. BUT, my female never was agile, or athletic. At 10, arthritis in her joints is evident. She does not have HD, but structurally does not have enough angulation that I would like to see in this breed. Her rear is high, straight backed is not a good thing! There is a reason for some angulation, as long as it isn't extreme.
 
#45 ·
I have a wonderful young male who had many bouts of pano. I let him set his activity level, which was low when it hurt, and he outgrew it. Because he was stuck indoors with me so often we bonded in a way I haven't before with a dog and that ended up being a good thing. I don't expect him to have any long term effects from it based on my research. He is agile, and he loves to run. I agree with Selzer, I think there are other causes that we may not understand, besides genetics. I just don't know. I have had many GSDs and he is the only one who had pano. He didn't grow too fast, he isn't oversized, I fed him well. He did have Giardia young and I think those meds were more detrimental than pano was. It disrupted his training, but as a result, I ended up using a private trainer instead and have had much better results than I would have with a class.
 
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