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Number of litters a breeder has in one year

8K views 32 replies 12 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
When I started researching breeders years ago, my goal was to find a breeder with no more than one or two litters a year, kept and raised inside a house with a family. When I narrowed the search as the time to get a new dog got closer, the small breeders I found didn't have any available puppies. If they had a litter, they were presold. One breeder said her dogs were promised two years in advance.

So I expanded my range and found some very well respected breeders have as many as 200 puppies a year. I would have called that a puppy mill, except other than quantity, they did everything else right, even down to whelping and keeping litters indoors.

I also noticed that people who say in theory that small breeders are best, tend to also write them off as "hobby breeders" or BYBs.

I found one breeder whose dogs I liked but based on watching the website for a few years, and seeing as many as 5 litters listed at one time every two months, that would be 30 litters a year. Then I noticed the breeder started hiding litters. There would be a notice of an upcoming litter but as soon as puppies were born or just before, the pictures disappeared.

Then I visited a breeder who people said had too many puppies, and after questioning closely, found that this breeder has maybe 10 litters a year at the most, but that not all planned breedings take and not all litters are huge. This breeder also keeps most dogs after they are retired by age 5, which is why visitors see a lot of adult female dogs. If a dog is very good at dog sports, IPO, or similar and should go to a working home, then the breeder lets the dog go, but is very picky about where they end up.

This is getting long. My question is, how many litters a year can a breeder comfortably handle and how important should that be when selecting a kennel? I'm not in the market for a new dog, but I am still researching for the next one.
 
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#3 ·
I think that question will always depend on the breeder individually.

The breeder I went with has a litter about every 7-8 weeks on average but has many dogs so she isn't just breeding the same dam over and over. She has a large ranch where the kenneled dogs have their own run and very large area. All the dogs seemed happy and well balanced, not overly hyper to see visitors, jumping and barking etc, but still friendly and social. The day we met her, she told us that between her dogs and dogs she is boarding/training, she had about 50 dogs on site. Totally calm and under control. Everything clean and organized. The fact that everything was so under control made me feel really comfortable with it. In fact, it was refreshing after the kennel I had been to previously, where the breeding dogs were locked up in a small area, barking excitedly and completely uncontrolled in their behavior, to see humans. I had no idea how to gauge the temperament of the parents when they might have just been excited for visitors because they are lacking in human interaction, or maybe they were just high strung dogs - who knows?

The puppies from the breeder I used spent most of their days in an ex pen on a grassy lawn with lots of shade, and coming out frequently to run around and socialize with other dogs and all the visitors who come through the kennel. They looked SUPER happy the two times I visited.

So under these circumstances I found the number of litters per year to be fine as it was clearly not a puppy mill, all the dogs were being well cared for, and I considered the breeder to be very experienced because of it.
 
#4 ·
The problem with breeders who have a ton of litters, is that it is impossible to truly work and know that many females. A lot of breeders with that many litters have others live and work with the dogs. Then again the breeder doesn't truly know all the ins and outs of that particular dog. Here is a quote from Max himself. "The breeder on a small scale, one who works with 1 or 2 bitches, is the most suitable breeder for service dogs because he can care for his breeding animals and their progeny to such an extent that he can produce strong sound animals that can be trained" - Captain Max Stephanitz
 
#6 ·
That seems to be the case. Also, if a breeder titles the dogs, they are traveling a lot and not around to work with the dogs they are breeding. They are too busy titling the next generation of breeding dogs. If someone else titles them, the breeder doesn't have a working interaction.
 
#7 ·
I think it does depend. I don't put a hard and fast number on it. I would look more at the relationship between the breeder and the dogs - how much time is spent with each dog both in titling/training and in the day-to-day, what kind of attention goes into the puppies, how clean and well organized are the premises especially where the puppies spend their time, do they have help and support available if needed.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I've always been told that one of the hallmarks of excellent breeders is they keep back a puppy from each paired breeding, so they know what they're producing in terms of structure, temperament, health (incl. longevity!), biddability, etc. How do these big producers doing that with so many litters with different pairings? Are they growing so big because of all the puppies they kept back and wanted to breed upon maturity?

Also, from a rescue perspective, some of core virtues of ethical breeders are (a) they screen buyers (and say "no" when it's not a good fit, instead of focusing on getting the money out of the litter as fast as possible), (b) they provide good post-purchase support, as needed (they know where their dogs are, how they're doing, and what they accomplished as adults), and (c) if a placement doesn't work out, they'll take the dog back and handle rehoming so their pups never grow up to be dumped in a shelter. If bad stuff happens and one does end up abandoned, they move heaven and earth to help the dog. This is one of reasons I totally support people choosing to get a puppy from an ethical breeder if adopting a rescued adult isn't right for them -- the good breeders aren't adding to my problems in rescue because they're acting as a safety net for their own dogs. (Unfortunately, many of us in rescue have occasionally encountered GSDs surrendered to the public shelter with AKC paperwork that leads back to high-volume breeders who don't care in the least that one of theirs was in need of help. That's not a function of size, though, as some very small-scale breeders have also balked at doing anything helpful in those circumstances, leaving the adult dogs they once whelped to die in a shelter. It's a function of integrity, in my opinion -- ethical breeders are ethical because they have integrity and care about the well-being of the dogs they bring into the world).

Having worked last year with one of those ethical breeders to get a SENIOR back to her care when it ended up in a high-kill shelter 9 years after she whelped it, I can say that kind of integrity is a beautiful thing. Can the high-volume producers offer that kind of commitment, with 200 puppies a year going out into the world? They'd almost need to hire staff to handle the post-purchase support, follow-up, and eventual rehoming requests with that volume of puppies -- some percentage of placements will fall part, even with good screening and support. Maybe they are big enough operations to have that kind of staff?
 
#12 ·
I've always been told that one of the hallmarks of excellent breeders is they keep back a puppy from each paired breeding, so they know what they're producing in terms of structure, temperament, health (incl. longevity!), biddability, etc. How do these big producers doing that with so many litters with different pairings? Are they growing so big because of all the puppies they kept back and wanted to breed upon maturity?

Also, from a rescue perspective, some of core virtues of ethical breeders are (a) they screen buyers (and say "no" when it's not a good fit, instead of focusing on getting the money out of the litter as fast as possible), (b) they provide good post-purchase support, as needed (they know where their dogs are, how they're doing, and what they accomplished as adults), and (c) if a placement doesn't work out, they'll take the dog back and handle rehoming so their pups never grow up to be dumped in a shelter. If bad stuff happens and one does end up abandoned, they move heaven and earth to help the dog. This is one of reasons I totally support people choosing to get a puppy from an ethical breeder if adopting a rescued adult isn't right for them -- the good breeders aren't adding to my problems in rescue because they're acting as a safety net for their own dogs. (Unfortunately, many of us in rescue have occasionally encountered GSDs surrendered to the public shelter with AKC paperwork that leads back to high-volume breeders who don't care in the least that one of theirs was in need of help.)

Having worked last year with one of those ethical breeders to get a SENIOR back to her care when it ended up in a high-kill shelter 9 years after she whelped it, I can say that kind of integrity is a beautiful thing. Can the high-volume producers offer that kind of commitment, with 200 puppies a year going out into the world? They'd almost need to hire staff to handle the post-purchase support, follow-up, and eventual rehoming requests with that volume of puppies -- some percentage of placements will fall part, even with good screening and support. Maybe they are big enough operations to have that kind of staff?
The large breeders I found do repeat breedings so they know what they are producing or they breed dogs within the same line and make assumptions. I wish I could mention an example, but it would seem like bashing, so I can't. I sometimes see her dogs on Pedigree Database. But when I interviewed her, I got some conflicting answers that seemed evasive. One of them will rehome a prior puppy but won't take them back, so they can't be positive the dog gets into a good home. The theory is that it's not the same dog they sold, especially if wasn't properly trained, so they are taking back an unknown and possible dangerous dog.
 
#18 ·
Some people can barely manage 1-2 kids, some can handle 6-8 just fine. Some do a great job with 1-2 kids, some are horrid with 6-8.

It is individual, kind of like having kids.

Mycobraracr must have had a few dogs, and also must have had many dogs, and in his or her experience, she would not be able to manage a lot because she would not be able to know them all in and out.

The thing is, everyone is different. Having a bunch of dogs does not mean that you are working each of those dog as the same level. An 8 year old bitch does not need the same training routine as a 18 month old. Lots of people can work and up and coming pup, and an young dog, and a dog in their prime, and still have time to provide care and positive experience for the other dogs that are either his breeding stock or retired dogs, breeding or not. And such an owner might know each of those dogs very well.

It depends on the individual. Talk to them, visit them, look at the sire and the dam and the pups. if you trust them and like what you see and hear, buy a puppy. If you don't, don't buy a puppy.
 
#19 ·
Mycobraracr must have had a few dogs, and also must have had many dogs, and in his or her experience, she would not be able to manage a lot because she would not be able to know them all in and out.

No, I'm not saying I've owned every number of dogs and came to that conclusion. However, I do know how much time I invest in just one dog. That way when someone asks if my dogs are capable of living in a house, I don't have to say "well I'm sure they would be fine living in a house". I can say with certainty that my dogs are house dogs because they live in the house. I don't have to tell people, "I'm sure my dogs could do bite sports". I can say my dogs do multiple bite sports. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dog could be a PPD", because my dogs are PPD's. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dogs could do agility, because my dogs do agility. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dogs would travel well, because my dogs have driven and flown across the country, stayed in hotels and everything in between. I don't have to tell people " I'm sure my dogs could get along with other dogs", because my dogs have been all around random dogs of different shapes and sizes and done large "pack training" sessions. That's what I'm getting at. I know my dogs in and out. My dogs are another appendage of mine. They go everywhere with me. I don't care who you are, that's hard to do with a large number of dogs.
 
#23 ·
Sometimes life happens to breeders, too. I'm sure that my breeder would help me find a home for Varik if something happened and no one could take him (wouldn't happen). However, I don't expect her to give him a home. She had a recurrence of cancer and has been fighting hard, while taking care of her dogs at home.
 
#25 ·
This is true too. Life does happen to breeders, and they will feel terrible if they cannot take the dog back. They might die. It happens. But while we are actively breeding, we should be capable to bring back a dog if necessary. It may be risky to bring a dog back when you have young puppies. But we can keep them separate for a quarantine of sorts. We might say Heck No, to rescuing an outside dog when we have babies, but dogs that we produced, they are our responsibility. If we are unable to take them back, they we are really unable to continue breeding at least until we beat the cancer or serious accident, and get our life back together.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I know breeders that almost never have dogs returned, I know breeders that have a disproportionate amount of dogs returned. When bred correctly, I find that this breed is strong, resilient, intelligent, adaptable, and able to thrive indoors or outdoors, in the country or the city, with high end training or plain manners training, minus the human emotional expectations of some breeders. OTOH, I find breeders that are breeding outside the standard to extremes, often have dogs returned, often have excuses why their dogs are the way they are when it is genetic, often have dogs placed in shelters because of issues with the dog as opposed to the owners, and as a result are often guilt driven in their expectations of breeders/owners. I have bred many litters over the years, and have only had two dogs returned ( one because owner contracted advanced MS and had to be placed in assisted living, and one that washed out of police academy ) and both dogs were not only rehomed, but were extremely successful in their new homes because they were sound inside and out. With breeders that I know that have high return rates, I seem to always hear " abuse" mentioned in the " reason" why they are returned. Not every case, but FAR to often for me not to believe that MAYBE shyness, lack of nerve, or extreme sharpness of a genetic nature could be underlying reason in many cases. These are the breeders that I would never buy a dog from and shouldn't breed, imo.
But hey, I'm kinda outdated in my thinking.��
 
#29 ·
That is well said by Cliffson

A good breeder should also vet customers and make sure the right pup goes to the right owner. That would totally limit pups to be returned.

Also breeding dogs people want and appreciate would be a big plus.

You don't need to turn into a rescue just because you breed dogs imo.
 
#30 ·
Breeding dogs people want and appreciate?

If people read, and understood, the breed standard, especially the part about expected breed behavior, then bought from a reputable breeder, maybe they would get a dog they want and appreciate. A breeder should breed to the standard. A breeder's job, among many, is to preserve and improve the breed. We can't blame the breeder for the buyer's lack of due diligence.
 
#31 ·
I think that if someone goes to a well-known, well-respected breeder, they are less likely to believe a problem that they are having with the dog, is within the dog. They are far more likely to expect things to go right from the get go -- not anticipating and eagle-eying every sting bomb the dog blows. They are more likely to have their ducks in a row in the first place, probably having waited for the litter, and excited and feel honored to have their new pup in the first place. They are far more likely to be experienced with shepherds -- a lot more likely to have their expectations realisitic. And if there is a problem, then they are far more likely to reflect what they might be doing wrong or what they might do differently.

And so your pet people, your first time buyers, your people who don't care about blood lines, or papers, or titles, or whatever so long as the price is right people -- they are going to land on your less well-known breeders. They are going to land on your less-ethical breeders. They are going to land on the breeders who are breeding between the lines, and out of standard, and cutting corners for profit, and whatever dogs are convenient. They are going to land on breeders who are up and coming.

Some of these people are going to be great owners, and will need little help and their dogs will be everything they expect and desire.

Some of these people are going to have a huge learning curve -- the dog isn't impossible to train, the people are just inexperienced and undisciplined in themselves. And unless they get help their pup is going to fail to thrive in training and behavior. It isn't so much abuse or neglect as inexperience.

I think more often than not these people are going to believe the issues are with the dog rather than anything they may not be doing right or well. They will be encouraged in this belief by forums, who are quick to say, "genetic" and "bad breeding." And that is what these people want to hear. It is funny that when they do get a different trainer, and they try different methods, and the dog responds positively, no one goes back and corrects the "genetic" and "bad breeding" claims.

The beauty of it is that GSDs are resilient, and for most first-time owners, they can learn with their puppy. And both come out of the process pretty much unscathed.

Sometimes life happens and dogs come back. Rushie came back to me. I did not mention him because he was not my breeding, just my training. He came back to me because his owner died. Death is a part of life and it happens. And we take the dog back. I had him a new home, within moments and delivered him the next day after getting him his shots. We do it because we love the dog. You can't have a dog for 4 years, and then say, "it's not my problem, take him to the shelter."

Breeders do not need to become rescues. But, they do need to stand behind their dogs. And if they won't you have to ask the question, why?
 
#32 · (Edited)
I agree! If I had Simon back as a 10 week old puppy, I would be a completely different handler. I thought I was good with dogs and I am. But GSDs, for me, were above my "pay grade" and I didn't know it until I got custody of one. Chip18 says that a adolescent GSD will let you know where the holes are in your training. Yeah!

I knew it was me and my lack of skills and not the dog. It is still me and not the dog. But, Simon was mine, not some fantastic GSD handler's. Mine to struggle through and not give up on.

And, like many other pet owners on the forum, I got help here and a huge education going out there working with different trainers. I learned something from all of them and Simon was my guinea pig.

The thing is, all that effort created an incredibly deep bond between us.
 
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