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Psa Titles as breeding titles

9K views 44 replies 14 participants last post by  lhczth 
#1 ·
What is your opinion on psa Titles showing a dog is worthy of breeding? Meaning reputable breeders sell a dog with limited registration and will only make it full registration after dog has earn a title. Usually that's ipo but some breeders also accept psa Titles. Thoughts?

If you were looking for a pup would you rather choose two parents with ipo Titles or two with psa Titles? I know that's a loaded question but just speaking in general terms. Thoughts?
 
#3 ·
Just depends on what you're looking for. If you're into PSA, look for PSA, if you're into IPO, I'm sure the IPO titles are more important.

Then there are people that know so much that they could care less about any titles and just want to see the dogs do something if their pedigree looks like its what they're interested in.
 
#6 ·
Do you have a way of knowing how the titles were obtained? Are they club trials with in house decoys? If so they mean very little, or were they national or world level titles obtained in another field they couldn't practice in with decoys they didn't know?
 
#10 · (Edited)
I think the problem with the question is that "breedworthy" is such an objective thing. You'll see a lot of things that make a dog breedworthy. A dog without any titles can be considered breedworthy because a "reputable breeder" said so and everyone else just fell inline. But a dog that's IPO3 could not be considered breedworthy because a breeder of high enough caliber didn't give their approval.

If you're talking about on this forum...I would assume any high level bite sport title would get people to "approve" of the litter. I've noticed that any type of bite sport, because it has a reputation of proving a bit about the dog's nerves, gets a bit more credit than doing sports which don't have any kind of protection component.

I do SDA and IPO training. SDA is kind of small. It's fun, but it just doesn't have the same reach as IPO. So an SDA title won't be known by as many people as an IPO title. I'll assume the same is true for PSA. The more I read...the more I understand how important it is to actually watch/work the dogs you're thinking about getting a puppy out of. A dog can be an excellent example of the breed, but someone with an agenda can come on here and rip apart some small component of a video that was taken.

What I've seen/heard is that IPO people are a little more closed minded when it comes to other titles and they like to see IPO titles in the pedigree. The guy I work with for SDA says that it's important to breed back to IPO titled dogs in the pedigree because the more serious people in the sport (IPO) generally won't look at a puppy that doesn't have IPO titles within the last 2-3 generations. Other sports...the people seem to be a bit more open (which makes sense that if you do SDA you'll be fine with a generational pedigree that only has SDA titles in it). The same guy, basically says that most of the puppies are sold to pet homes who can give two rips about any titles lol.
 
#11 ·
I'm one of those that know so much that I give little thought to titles but more so to genetics and experience/knowledge of the breeder. :)....at the end of the day, what you consistently breed/own speaks volumes about whether the way you determine breed worthy is valid. The thing I struggle with is defining the people who are continually lucky doing things their way:D.
 
#12 ·
I have titled the same dog in both IPO and PSA twice, and working on my third. I believe PSA is a better test of a dogs environmental stability, civility, substance and confidence in protection but believe IPO covers a broader spectrum in terms of the three phases.

You learn a great deal about an IPO dog when you transition to PSA...both good and bad. I believe PSA exposes more of the dog than IPO protection (I can write a book). But I believe a test that includes nose work is important too. IPO (even if the dog can be trained sufficiently to obtain a title) the work put into IPO tells the handler a little more. Tracking is difficult if the dog doesn't have good food drive, obedience and retrieves are more challenging with a dog who doesn't have sufficient toy drive.

It is much more than knowing if a dog will bite for real or can obtain high scores. It is in the training that teaches you the most.
 
#13 ·
@Warrior.....though I agree with pretty much everything you just wrote:), I must remind you that in discussing breeding or breed worthy, I have yet to see a dog that can pass the title or the training through their sperm:eek:. In judging worth of individual dog, I often give much value to performances or titles in the higher venues of sport or PSA.....but it won't change the genetics when I look at the dog from breeding perspective. But remember,:wub:, I am very outdated in my approaches!
 
#14 ·
@ Cliff. Agreed but if folks don't test genetics with training and titles how do you accurately evaluate?
If a dog has zero titles in the closest four generations can you accurately assess their pedigrees? Know their strengths and weaknesses?

I have an imported Czech dog who I washed from PSA because of environmental sensitivity. But he has excellent drives and is doing good in IPO (where the most fields look and helpers behave the same) He isn't breed worthy and you probably couldn't tell that from his pedigree.

so while a dog can't train and pass a title with his sperm, the training/title will eliminate those who are not worthy JMO. ;-)
 
#17 ·
so while a dog can't train and pass a title with his sperm, the training/title will eliminate those who are not worthy JMO. ;-)
:thumbup: :)
 
#20 ·
I've realized "breed worthy" is the most subjective term that gets thrown around on this forum.

Each one of us is looking for something different, and when we find it, we get it no matter what others say. So no matter what the pedigree says, I'm sure someone out there can find a fault in it, and no matter how high of a score the dog gets at a PSA/SDA/IPO trial, someone will still watch it work and find an issue and tell you why they wouldn't breed that dog.
 
#22 ·
Even if the dog has 'it' with the nose, the protection and all else, if there is some health issues in the progeny or history, the dog is not breedworthy. So looking at the dog individually and how that dog is~ without seeing siblings or others produced, is that a fair assessment?
I think there is way more to PSA, SDA or IPO titles when it comes to the larger picture when it comes to reproducing.
But then again, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
 
#26 ·
Some years ago I helped a friend who was showing at a AKC lab speciality and yup, lots of debates between show and field lines.

Another friend was into goldens. Same thing, show goldens vs field. She preferred field and completed in AKC OB (her dogs made UDX too!) and hunt tests.

GSDs do manage to take this debate to a whole 'nuther level though.
 
#25 ·
I suppose there are few titles available that are worthless IF the breeder have a good eye if a certain dog is breedworthy and have what it takes for the purpose of the breedingprogram, then PSA,SCH,policedog and so on is of less importance because you look at the dog first and not the titles. As mentioned earlier breeding is not only about one dog, it´s also to have knowledge about the relatives/family of the dogs regarding health and their workingability, if you have that then the "genetic power" of the dog is stronger compared to a dog that have nice titles and points as an individual but besides that you don´t know much or it doesn´t look so impressive regarding health and workingability.
 
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