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-   -   breeding dogs with problems (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/459130-breeding-dogs-problems.html)

lalachka 06-10-2014 07:04 PM

breeding dogs with problems
 
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so, general question.

i read many times that if you don't breed dogs that have relatives with problems then you will end up with no dogs to breed

With so many things that can go wrong with gsds it seems true. So how does a breeder choose which faults are OK to breed and which are not.

wolfstraum 06-10-2014 08:48 PM

It is a risk assessment thing.....

For example.....HYPOTHETICALLY a female has 5 litters - total of 40 pups. 3-5 per litter x-rayed - so 20 .....All have normal elbows, 3 Excellent, 3 Fails, 1 Fair and the 13 Goods/Normals...the Fails are marginal and these dogs show no issues.....Would you then breed one of her Good rated progeny? Look deeper at the pedigrees of the ones that fail....find that the sire's grandsire is NZ and has quite a high percentage of NZs and fails, and so do 3 other sons....and the sire has 4 out of 15 that are NZ or worse....the percentage of fails is small in the female, so for the next litter you look deeper into the male's pedigree.....

You have a female with a very high profile pedigree...daughter of a highly popular much used sire....you breed her to a son of the same popularity.....you get 2 dwarfs and a nice nice female.....Do you breed again? Do you breed the nice female from her?

This one actually happened to me....No - the female is spayed, the nice nice female pup goes to a non breeding home and is spayed.....Many people do breed a female after producing a dwarf...siblings as well....it is a matter of what risk is acceptable....Probably 2/3 of the breeding dogs owned by people on this board will have dogs related to that female and those pups in 2 - 3 generations.....should they all spay those dogs????

You have to study production from the family - from similar crosses - and gather as much info as possible.....then make a decision based on what risk you are comfortable with.....I know a breeder who knowingly bred to a male whose sire produced insane nasty aggression - even 2 gens down.....that breeder was willing to take that risk to get the type of working ability shown by the male.....was willing to euthanize dogs that might be nasty and be returned at 1-2 years old to get what HE wanted....that one did not come to pass as the female did not get pregnant.

If there was a litter of 6 and 4 had problems in health or temperament (H/T), and other litters from the dam had ~25% H/T problems - then you should really reexamine your goals....

But nothing is ever totally 100% perfect and you just have to assess the risks and decide how much you are willing to assume, because there will ALWAYS be risks....

Lee

lalachka 06-10-2014 09:07 PM

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First of all, why is it that if dogs can't be bred or have problems in their pedigrees they should be fixed? This is from your comment that 2/3 of the people on the forum have the dogs related to that dog and should they all spay? Others said that too.

Why fix? Why not let them remain intact and just not breed?

But anyway. So it's a bunch of tough choices.

OK another question. It must be extremely tough to do the right thing sometimes. For example, you have a dog with some nice titles, everything is perfect about him and then some health problem comes along. Something serious. I can't give a good example because I don't know anything about this but something that will be passed along.

How do you let all the work go and not breed? It must be extremely tough. From what I know it takes years of work to title a dog, so do you just start over with another one? Breed anyway?


Another question. Are there obvious no no's? Or every breeder has their own lines that they won't cross?

Like are there things that should never be done and if a breeder does it then he's unethical? Or it's all what you're comfortable with?


Also, someone who only has 5 dogs, what if 3-4 turn out unsuitable later on?
I just can't imagine someone doing the right thing and scrapping their program and starting over?
Or If you know what you're doing then you can tell way before you put much work in the dog?

I heard some things can crop up years down the line.


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lalachka 06-10-2014 09:18 PM

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And a few more. They're probably naive and ignorant. Bear with me.

When I first started reading the forums I was shocked that people can look at pedigrees and know things about dogs. How's that possible? How many dogs are out there breeding to each other that people can read a pedigree and know half the dogs on it.

Or it's not that the dogs that they know, it's something else?

And inbreeding. It was explained already why people do it but i still can't get over it. Isn't there a different way to achieve the same goals?
Or it's not true that health problems are caused by inbreeding?


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Merciel 06-10-2014 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lalachka (Post 5626098)
How do you let all the work go and not breed? It must be extremely tough. From what I know it takes years of work to title a dog, so do you just start over with another one? Breed anyway?

It is tough, and I won't pretend to know the right answer. I've never bred a dog in my life.

I will say, though, that I know a couple of people (none of them in GSDs) who have put a ton of blood, sweat, and tears into training and trialing their dogs, only to find that the dogs -- although extremely successful in their chosen venues -- were unsuitable for breeding. They spayed those dogs. In one instance, it actually did not become clear for several generations, but the line wasn't getting stronger, it was getting weaker with each generation, so the breeder completely terminated the line.

I think that decision is harder to make if you're in a rare breed and refusing to breed that dog will significantly reduce the gene pool available to that breed. But the people I'm thinking of were all in fairly popular sport breeds (mostly BCs), so while eliminating their dogs from breeding was a huge personal blow, they were able to take some consolation in knowing that they'd done the right thing for their breed.

It's a very tough decision. Most of the people I know who were in that situation ended up getting out of breeding for several years or altogether. It was more heartbreak than they wanted to endure again.

lalachka 06-10-2014 09:49 PM

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Yep. I will never breed but if I ever did i'd like to think i'd make the right decision but lol everyone likes to thing they're doing or would do the right thing.

I respect someone who can do that.


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Skywalkers Mom 06-10-2014 10:07 PM

I am sadden by the hard truth. Many dogs are bred and if not" good enough" what do you think happpens to them? Some of dog show people are severe narcissitic people and few are not. They bred more and more sloped back GSD's only to prolethicate Hip Dysplasia. They dont care . Euthinize and start again So many people on this site are small minded with blinders on. They want to win win win and its awful.

lalachka 06-10-2014 10:30 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Skywalkers Mom (Post 5626386)
I am sadden by the hard truth. Many dogs are bred and if not" good enough" what do you think happpens to them? Some of dog show people are severe narcissitic people and few are not. They bred more and more sloped back GSD's only to prolethicate Hip Dysplasia. They dont care . Euthinize and start again So many people on this site are small minded with blinders on. They want to win win win and its awful.

can you give examples of the "small minded with blinders on"?
showline slopes are horrible, i can't even look at them. my boy has a roach too and his legs look a little funny.

i also watched the BBC documentary and wow. the poor spaniels with heads too small for brains, the pugs with a myriad of problems and teeth that need to be pulled because otherwise they're biting themselves, bulldogs that can't breed on their own and need to be jerked off. you can't make this stuff up.

Vandal 06-10-2014 10:39 PM

Angulation has nothing to do with hip dysplasia.

lalachka 06-10-2014 10:45 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vandal (Post 5626562)
Angulation has nothing to do with hip dysplasia.

yeah since other "non angulated" breeds have it as well. so how did it develop?


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