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Breeding Costs breakdown

18K views 48 replies 11 participants last post by  carmspack 
#1 ·
Hello all,
I haven't googled this yet, but thought some of you may have something already that would show the how much breeding actually costs. I'm not talking exact amounts but just a general idea. I've seen something like it before.

Apparently we have people (namely family members) who think we are making a ton of money off our dogs, and even though I have explained before that that is not how it works, they obviously didn't listen or didn't believe us. It is very frustrating because we are a one income household, home school our kids (which isn't cheap), and while we live comfortably (but definitely not extravagantly), things are tight for us financially. It just gets my hackles up...
 
#32 ·
I would be happy to pay for my breeding expenses and maybe have something extra to supplement a rather expensive passion. Of course that would probably require me to breed more often than I do, stop giving puppies to people and, more importantly, to lower my standards for what I want to produce.

If I didn't breed I probably wouldn't bother with the conformation ration or a breed survey (why?). I might not go to the expense of putting OFA's on my dogs though I would still x-ray. I would not have stud fees, progesterone testing, brucelosis testing, shipping costs, AI expenses (for my B and D litters), x-rays to count puppies, an emergency C-section (E litter), vaccinations and wormer for puppies, extra food for puppies, travel expenses to the male (whether I drove or fly), hotel expenses, litter application, puppy registrations (for the whole litter), microchips (for the whole litter), wouldn't have to maintain a website............

Expenses for 6 litters. 1st born in 2003. Last one in 2013. Total of 35 puppies. I have kept 4. Gifted or donated 10. Prices have varied from $1000 to $1800.
Stud fees: $500-$1500 (T-$5250)
Vet fees: $30-$300 (per visit so no total)
Travel expenses: $500-$2800 (trip to Germany was expensive)
emergency c-section: $800 T
x-rays for pregnancy: $300 T
Puppy vaccinates:$600 T
Microchips: $700 T
Whelping box: $80 T
fleece: $400 T
Litter registration: Can't remember what this costs. LOL
Registration per puppy (have only done my last 3): $300 T

I lost my rear on the E litter (travel expenses, emergency section, only 3 puppies, though the stud fee was very reasonable), but I got Elena and a once and a lifetime trip to Germany.
 
#35 ·
Counting the costs of training and titling should not "factor in" as far as what people charge for puppies and stud fees, but I do think it applies here. I got the vibe that the OP was talking more about people who think that we just buy a dog, own it for a few years, and then rake in the dough breeding it. I sold a dog a few years back for a lot less than what I could have but it was still a decent amount and my family was like "holy crap you should quit your job and just do that!" Then I started recounting what I'd already put into that dog (with NO intention of ever breeding or selling him) and they shut up fast. The dog was only worth that much *because* he was a good quality dog to start with (so not a $300 craigslist puppy) and the years of training and titling that were already put into him. Same thing goes for breeding. If you do it right and avoid multiple catastrophes you can certainly break even and then have some to put back into the hobby like get another dog, take a few more dog related trips, enter a longer distance event, but I doubt any of us could quit our day jobs.....
 
#36 ·
Chris, I forgot to add the costs of the wormer for the albon resistant coccidia. That stuff is a killer. Luckily only had to deal with that with my last litter. Also wormer for normal things and the giardia that was brought in one year.

I could add on how many years it took me to find a foundation bitch, puppies bought that didn't work out. It gets sort of scary. :eek:
 
#41 ·
Nobody mentioned (I think) the cost of a library , the cost of seminars , the cost of publications / magazines , all things educational.
Since I love research I would still have all of my books, the WinSIS, etc. :)
 
#38 ·
And then there are those that do nothing but maybe hip xrays, akc registered have another oops litter, get 12 pups and sell them for a grand each, using a kiddie pool as a whelping box.
 
#39 ·
Here’s the thing…many of the things Chris listed, and Carmen’s example are pretty extreme. I commend both for doing those things to get the “perfect match” so to say, but there are a lot of very good breeders that aren’t doing that. They look at a 4 or 5 generation pedigree, see that things match up, they watch the potential stud work, they can see how his physical attributes and his working attributes will work or not work with the female, and they breed.

Let’s for example use Drago right now. I’m sure there are plenty of HOT IPO bitches being bred to him by some very knowledgeable and ethical breeders that none of us would have any issues buying a dog from. Does that mean that Drago is the PERFECT match for that bitch? Well…kind of depends on what the breeder’s goals are, but at the same time, I’m sure there aren’t many potential puppy buyers that would deny a dog from that type of litter. Like Chris mentioned, potential customers aren’t as picky as some of the breeders on this forum are.

On top of all that, if you involve economies of scale, possibly have 3 or 4 bitches, or more…have a litter on the ground most of the spring through fall seasons (and I know for a fact there are well respected breeders that do this), you’ve got to be kidding if you say you’re not making money. I’ve been to enough trainings to have seen when breeders bring 3 or 4 dogs at a time with them. Cost per dog for travel starts to greatly decrease at that point. It’s also fairly accepted to breed an IPO1 bitch. And I know a lot of handlers that can fairly easily get that done by the time the dog is 2 years old. They could probably do it with 3 dogs (especially if they don’t have a full time job and breeding is their profession).

I’m not saying that many breeders don’t make money, they probably don’t. But most of the time I see the costs or expenses as things that would’ve been done anyways. Or “time spent” is greatly exaggerated and in many people’s (including other breeders) minds could be seen as a waste of time. If you’re sitting on pedigree database, looking for that perfect match for hours, when something that’s 95% perfect is already found, it’s kind of your prerogative. To match it to something in my world...there is something called materiality, where a mistake can be acceptable because it’s not material to either tax or financial statement purposes. Many of these mistakes would be “written off” or just put into a misc. expense account. Some accountants though would spend hours searching for where that 50 cent difference is coming from…and they could easily make the argument that it’s a necessary part of their job even though most would agree that it’s a waste of time.
 
#40 ·
There are breeders out there making money and some are even "doing it right" as far as titled/surveyed stock. They hope to get 1 or 2 good pups out of a litter and sell the rest to the pet market for $2500-$3500. I have a friend that breeds her untitled female to good males and gets big litters where most go into pet homes for good money. The pups are in demand and she uses the money to supplement her income. Different standards. I just bite my tongue a lot. :( She can also get $1500 on top of the puppy price if she puts basic OB on the pups, does some socializing and housebreaks/crate trains them.
 
#42 ·
The untitled female that has trialed but not passed.
But the dogs have really fluffy coats, with adorable puppies.
 
#43 ·
this "
And similar experience with importing my Pike daughter from Germany - but ended up with 2 dwarf pups in her only litter....$10 grand down the drain...."
and this "I could add on how many years it took me to find a foundation bitch, puppies bought that didn't work out. It gets sort of scary"

to my last post I had added thoughts similar to this , and then deleted them to avoid antagonism.

I brought in a female from abroad . Cost. I raised her , x rayed her hips and elbows . Liked her very much and looked forward to what she might contribute . Bred her . Because I only do one litter per year or less , that means that time was focused on her and her litter . She had a litter and then turned out to be a horrible mother. No mothering skills whatsoever. So not only was there a financial deficit directly from her litter , there was no other litter in the works at all , AND there is the emotional drain --- not easy . The trauma was the hardest to take .
She was never bred again.
Later on get excited about another female . Buy her , breed her to a male prior to import , don't keep her , don't keep any of the pups. They were not MY type of dog . Very hyper , too easily stimulated.
Buy a gorgeous female from abroad , have her bred "there" prior to import . Loved this female , wish I had her from a pup.
She has her litter , a large litter , with some promising pups.
Don't get any co-operation in making registration of the pups possible . No pups registered . Refund on all pups .
She was never bred again (her registration paper work went through).
A year later she passes away from a cancer of the jaw bone .
Another female -- killer dog-aggressive . NOT bred -

This is over a time span of 15 years or so .
 
#44 ·
Martemchik, if you think a lot of these things are "extreme" and there are perfectly good breeders who do things a whole lot more easily and cheaply I think you might want to also look into their purposes for breeding. Some breed for a good "end product", pups that grow to be successful in specific endeavors. Some breed for the future and because they have plans and goals for their breeding program and where they want to get that goes far beyond just producing good dogs for themselves and others to work. There is a big difference between the two, and the work involved. Just as it is easier to find and buy a good dog than it is a good dog who is also a good breeding dog, it is easier to breed good dogs than it is good dogs who carry specific traits, fit into your overall plan, and who in turn will continue to produce generation after generation of good dogs.
 
#46 ·
Martemchik, if you think a lot of these things are "extreme" and there are perfectly good breeders who do things a whole lot more easily and cheaply I think you might want to also look into their purposes for breeding. Some breed for a good "end product", pups that grow to be successful in specific endeavors. Some breed for the future and because they have plans and goals for their breeding program and where they want to get that goes far beyond just producing good dogs for themselves and others to work. There is a big difference between the two, and the work involved. Just as it is easier to find and buy a good dog than it is a good dog who is also a good breeding dog, it is easier to breed good dogs than it is good dogs who carry specific traits, fit into your overall plan, and who in turn will continue to produce generation after generation of good dogs.

Exactly.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Another aspect that some of the breeders have alluded too but not outright discussed that is both a direct cost as well as an emotional upset are wash outs.

If someone purchases a dog for a pet, or even to be highly competitive in any given sport, but it comes back OFA mild, or develops a minor health issue like allergies or digestive sensitivity, or has some temperament quirks that they don't like but can manage, or develops reproductive problems, or any number of things that would mean it isn't a good candidate for breeding but is just fine for their desired activity, it doesn't usually matter or have any large impact on their enjoyment of the dog or ability to reach their goals.

There are any number of things that would be very minor to those people, may not even be a blip on their radar, that would cause a dog intended for breeding to wash out. Putting the breeder in the situation of having to decide between placing the dog elsewhere to make room for another dog to try again at having a viable dog for breeding or keeping the dog that they've grown attached to and possibly now having a house full of dogs that they love but nothing to breed. Rarely can the breeder recoup the costs put into the wash out, so there is money lost as well as a huge emotional drain.

Of course, there are plenty of breeders who would still just go ahead and breed it anyway because they want to recoup some of those costs, but that's another matter.
 
#49 ·
currently I have three dogs of my breeding that are 12 , one will be 13 first days of Nov .
One has had 2 litters . One has had no litters -- I left it too long. I was too secure in the fact that I had her genetics available within the program.
The male , two litters?
All strategically planned litters, eliminating experimentation and need for numbers.
I would not ever deny them anything . They are guaranteed a good life . If one had an eye to the bottom line they would be gone , leave a place open for something else.
 
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