Breeding Ethics / Questions

BenderR · 03-13-2013, 11:07 AM

Hello - long time lurker new member. Let's cut right to the chase

I have a 2 year old German Shepherd (black/tan). She is a long hair shepherd with above average traits (very much the pick of the liter), She is AKC PAL/IP registered. Very excellent temperment, above average work drive, very easily trained. (we taught her to crawl under fences and picnic tables in 45 seconds with a light push on her back off the down command and motioned her forward while saying "crawl" "good girl" "crawl" just to give an idea of this dogs intelligence levels. A year after we purchased her we decided it was time to look for another puppy - a companion so to speak. We met up with a breeder for all black Czech Shepherds. Again - we pretty much had pick of the litter the breeder was holding "the pick male" for someone but was obviously new to puppy breeding and had no idea what too look for she was going off of weight gained, and not whom all the puppies where following and who ate first, and many other things you find in an above average puppy. So we obtained a very special male as well with very of the same characteristics, except better - he is very agile, is just as easily trained. He is full AKC registered.

My question being several things -

Yes i know it is shunned upon to own both male and female for a breed, but I do feel as both these dogs are from such great proven blood lines it'd be great.

My main question is - my male had one testicle that never descended - he just hit about a year, and nothing has dropped we're going to get the surgery too get the non descended testicle either dropped or removed. But how can this effect puppies if at all? He was the only male in his liter of 10 with 4 other males that had this issue.

Should I leave the other testical in tact for a "home breed," or remove both testicals and search for another stud?

qbchottu · 03-13-2013, 11:17 AM

A dog with cryptorchidism should never be bred. Neuter your male. Retained testes can turn cancerous with greater frequency.

Read the recommended pre-recs for breeding, and familiarize yourself further with the breed before you consider doing anything. What lines are the dogs? What is the pedigree? How have you proved your dog's abilities? (Sorry crawling under a fence on command isn't a tangible test for breeding worth) What are the hip/elbow scores? What do you know about the dam/sire? How did they produce? Grandparents? Greatgrandparents? The dogs may come from good bloodlines, but what have you done to prove the breeding dogs? Additional health tests - DM? Go deeper into the breed, and educate yourself further before considering breeding - it is the responsible thing to do...

Thinking About Becoming A Breeder? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
"Should I breed my dog?" Flowchart

**Liesje** · 03-13-2013, 11:20 AM

I would neuter the male when he is mature and not use him for breeding. There are plenty of awesome studs out there. It's very cheap, sometimes even free, to find a really nice stud that has show title, working title, all health certs, and free from genetic problems. Unless this male brings something absolutely phenomenal to the table I would not consider it.

**jocoyn** · 03-13-2013, 11:32 AM

My understanding is also that retained testicles are a simple recessive and if your dog is a cryptorchid, he WILL pass that gene along and how it will play out depends on whether or not the dam also carries the gene. The fact that the others had them drop just means they got the luck of the draw.

Decent flowchart here on thinking about breeding:
"Should I breed my dog?" Flowchart

UnlimitedGSD · 03-13-2013, 11:34 AM

Your female is registered under the PAL/IP system which means she is not a registered purebred. Please do not breed her.
Have your male neutered.

qbchottu · 03-13-2013, 11:40 AM

Great catch Lee - completely missed that...

Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege
Your litter would never be registrable with the AKC as the mother is not AKC registered...

sit,stay · 03-13-2013, 11:41 AM

I was always amazed at how many successful competitors in AKC events had spayed/neutered pets in addition to the dogs they competed with. In talking with people, I learned that many, many, many people were first involved in competition with a dog that didn't hold up. They spayed/neutered the dog, used the connections they had forged to get hooked up with a good breeder and carried on with their competition goals.

There are very, very few people who discover that they have a winning dog right out of the box. What they do find is a great attraction to the sport and a desire to be involved. So they recalibrate how they will reach their goals and start again with a dog more appropriate.

OP, neuter your male. If your female has a PAL/ILP registration, she would be spayed already. Dip your toes in the various sport venues, find the one that really speaks to you and then find a breeder who produces the type of dog that does well in your sport and start your breeding program there, with a dog that can compete in your sport and prove itself worthy of being breed. And honor your current dogs for getting you started on the path, even though you ended up doing the right thing for the breed and those dogs by not breeding them.
Sheilah

**jocoyn** · 03-13-2013, 11:41 AM

That is a good catch. I just looked because I thought that AKC required spayed or neutered to be listed PAL and it does.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADPAL1.pdf

UnlimitedGSD · 03-13-2013, 11:50 AM

Well d'uh!
I forgot that too!

qbchottu · 03-13-2013, 11:52 AM

How does AKC ask that you prove the dog is spayed or neutered? I took a look at the application, and all you have to do is provide a signature that the animal was altered.
http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADPAL1.pdf

But if the AKC does find out any information on the PAL registration was falsified, the PAL reg will be voided. OP: did the breeder register the dog with PAL and sell the dog to you as registered?

03-13-2013, 11:07 AM	#1 (permalink)
BenderR New Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 10	Breeding Ethics / Questions Hello - long time lurker new member. Let's cut right to the chase I have a 2 year old German Shepherd (black/tan). She is a long hair shepherd with above average traits (very much the pick of the liter), She is AKC PAL/IP registered. Very excellent temperment, above average work drive, very easily trained. (we taught her to crawl under fences and picnic tables in 45 seconds with a light push on her back off the down command and motioned her forward while saying "crawl" "good girl" "crawl" just to give an idea of this dogs intelligence levels. A year after we purchased her we decided it was time to look for another puppy - a companion so to speak. We met up with a breeder for all black Czech Shepherds. Again - we pretty much had pick of the litter the breeder was holding "the pick male" for someone but was obviously new to puppy breeding and had no idea what too look for she was going off of weight gained, and not whom all the puppies where following and who ate first, and many other things you find in an above average puppy. So we obtained a very special male as well with very of the same characteristics, except better - he is very agile, is just as easily trained. He is full AKC registered. My question being several things - Yes i know it is shunned upon to own both male and female for a breed, but I do feel as both these dogs are from such great proven blood lines it'd be great. My main question is - my male had one testicle that never descended - he just hit about a year, and nothing has dropped we're going to get the surgery too get the non descended testicle either dropped or removed. But how can this effect puppies if at all? He was the only male in his liter of 10 with 4 other males that had this issue. Should I leave the other testical in tact for a "home breed," or remove both testicals and search for another stud?

03-13-2013, 11:20 AM	#3 (permalink)
Liesje Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 16,426	I would neuter the male when he is mature and not use him for breeding. There are plenty of awesome studs out there. It's very cheap, sometimes even free, to find a really nice stud that has show title, working title, all health certs, and free from genetic problems. Unless this male brings something absolutely phenomenal to the table I would not consider it. __________________ Liesje & the K9s Nikon (GSD) U-CH SG Alta-Tollhaus Bono SchH1 KKL T1 FO PA TF-III FDCh-S CL1-R UJJ U-CA HIT TT CGC Coke (All-American) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC, couch warmer extraordinaire Indy (All-American) Blue Horizon's Indigo Girl, flyball star in training Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD) U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop CL1-R CL1-F RA HIT TDI TT CGC vom Blauen Horizont / Blue Horizon GSDs

03-13-2013, 11:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
jocoyn Zombie Queen Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 12,073	My understanding is also that retained testicles are a simple recessive and if your dog is a cryptorchid, he WILL pass that gene along and how it will play out depends on whether or not the dam also carries the gene. The fact that the others had them drop just means they got the luck of the draw. Decent flowchart here on thinking about breeding: "Should I breed my dog?" Flowchart __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Beau -NAPWDA Certified Cadaver Dog Waiting at the Bridge (italics=GSDs) (hemangiosarcoma=blue):Grim , Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

03-13-2013, 11:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
UnlimitedGSD Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Oxford Mills, Ontario Posts: 35	Your female is registered under the PAL/IP system which means she is not a registered purebred. Please do not breed her. Have your male neutered. __________________ Lee Hanrahan unlimitedGSD

03-13-2013, 11:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
jocoyn Zombie Queen Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 12,073	That is a good catch. I just looked because I thought that AKC required spayed or neutered to be listed PAL and it does. http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADPAL1.pdf __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Beau -NAPWDA Certified Cadaver Dog Waiting at the Bridge (italics=GSDs) (hemangiosarcoma=blue):Grim , Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles

03-13-2013, 11:17 AM	#2 (permalink)
qbchottu Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,788	A dog with cryptorchidism should never be bred. Neuter your male. Retained testes can turn cancerous with greater frequency. Read the recommended pre-recs for breeding, and familiarize yourself further with the breed before you consider doing anything. What lines are the dogs? What is the pedigree? How have you proved your dog's abilities? (Sorry crawling under a fence on command isn't a tangible test for breeding worth) What are the hip/elbow scores? What do you know about the dam/sire? How did they produce? Grandparents? Greatgrandparents? The dogs may come from good bloodlines, but what have you done to prove the breeding dogs? Additional health tests - DM? Go deeper into the breed, and educate yourself further before considering breeding - it is the responsible thing to do... Thinking About Becoming A Breeder? - German Shepherd Dog Forums "Should I breed my dog?" Flowchart

03-13-2013, 11:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
qbchottu Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,788	Great catch Lee - completely missed that... Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege Your litter would never be registrable with the AKC as the mother is not AKC registered...

03-13-2013, 11:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
sit,stay Knighted Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,723	I was always amazed at how many successful competitors in AKC events had spayed/neutered pets in addition to the dogs they competed with. In talking with people, I learned that many, many, many people were first involved in competition with a dog that didn't hold up. They spayed/neutered the dog, used the connections they had forged to get hooked up with a good breeder and carried on with their competition goals. There are very, very few people who discover that they have a winning dog right out of the box. What they do find is a great attraction to the sport and a desire to be involved. So they recalibrate how they will reach their goals and start again with a dog more appropriate. OP, neuter your male. If your female has a PAL/ILP registration, she would be spayed already. Dip your toes in the various sport venues, find the one that really speaks to you and then find a breeder who produces the type of dog that does well in your sport and start your breeding program there, with a dog that can compete in your sport and prove itself worthy of being breed. And honor your current dogs for getting you started on the path, even though you ended up doing the right thing for the breed and those dogs by not breeding them. Sheilah

03-13-2013, 11:50 AM	#9 (permalink)
UnlimitedGSD Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Oxford Mills, Ontario Posts: 35	Well d'uh! I forgot that too! __________________ Lee Hanrahan unlimitedGSD

03-13-2013, 11:52 AM	#10 (permalink)
qbchottu Knighted Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,788	How does AKC ask that you prove the dog is spayed or neutered? I took a look at the application, and all you have to do is provide a signature that the animal was altered. http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADPAL1.pdf But if the AKC does find out any information on the PAL registration was falsified, the PAL reg will be voided. OP: did the breeder register the dog with PAL and sell the dog to you as registered?

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