Breeding Ethics / Questions

[Chris Wild]

So you have a female that is not a registered purebred with documented lineage and thus no knowledge of her bloodlines, pedigree or background, who is registered through the PAL/ILP system which requires dogs to be spayed/neutered yet she isn't so apparently someone lied on her PAL/ILP application.

And a male from a breeder who didn't know what she was doing, who is cryptorchid.

Does either the male or the female have any sort of temperament testing or performance title? As others have said, teaching basic obedience and tricks is no where near sufficient proof of temperament and nerve for breeding. Does either have health clearances, at least hip and elbow certifications at minimum?

Even if the answers to those things are yes, which they don't seem to be, I do not think this is an appropriate breeding pair. The cryptorchid male should not be bred. Rather than look for another stud for the female, I wouldn't consider breeding her at all. A female without a real registration and pedigree, health clearances and some sort of objective temperament testing shouldn't be bred either.

[PupperLove]

If you are thinking that the breeder of the male was new to breeding, and seems like they didn't know what they were doing, that is reason enough to not breed the male. Also breeding a cryptorchid male is a big no-no. That is a genetic fault that can be passed on and cause issues in future generations. If your female is a long coat, that is also a fault per the GSD standard. This breed already has so many issues, so breeding a dog that does not even fit the standard to a dog who has a genetic issue is just not a good idea at all. It's only adding to the problem. Just keep them as pets and have them spayed and neutered.

[BenderR]

Seems I came to the correct place for answers. The male will be neutered this next Thursday fully. We had hoped the testical would descend but unfortunately it did not. With the strangulation concerns and reading what I just read i feel its the best decision. I find it interesting the cryptorchid recessive trait become prepubescent in dogs that have it. I sincerly appreciate everyones input on that subject.

The falsification of AKC PAL/IP paperwork will be dealt with. I never even read over the paperwork it was given to be from the breeder. As my female just came outta heat (she wears diapers when outta kennel and crate and around male) I know for a fact she is not spayed. We do have the documented lineage on her - the breeder was getting out of the community and never registered a male he bred that he later used on another female that was AKC registered.

I do find it very important too say, my goals for breeding are simply too have more of my own shepherds and too give the remaining puppies too family for free. We want too breed once every decade or so from breeders with good pedigree dogs. We are not looking for money, we just want more dogs for ourselves and too bless some family who just simply can't afford the price of a good lineage dog. But we still want too apply a very high standard too our own dog though in the same breathe.

I will be contacting and looking into temperment testing, getting health clearances, x-ray.

This has been an eye opening experience, and i appreciate the years of experience that have commented on my post. thanks again for your help - time to call the vet and start checking out my female.

[JackandMattie]

Originally Posted by BenderR

Seems I came to the correct place for answers. The male will be neutered this next Thursday fully. We had hoped the testical would descend but unfortunately it did not. With the strangulation concerns and reading what I just read i feel its the best decision. I find it interesting the cryptorchid recessive trait become prepubescent in dogs that have it. I sincerly appreciate everyones input on that subject.

The falsification of AKC PAL/IP paperwork will be dealt with. I never even read over the paperwork it was given to be from the breeder. As my female just came outta heat (she wears diapers when outta kennel and crate and around male) I know for a fact she is not spayed. We do have the documented lineage on her - the breeder was getting out of the community and never registered a male he bred that he later used on another female that was AKC registered.

I do find it very important too say, my goals for breeding are simply too have more of my own shepherds and too give the remaining puppies too family for free. We want too breed once every decade or so from breeders with good pedigree dogs. We are not looking for money, we just want more dogs for ourselves and too bless some family who just simply can't afford the price of a good lineage dog. But we still want too apply a very high standard too our own dog though in the same breathe.

I will be contacting and looking into temperment testing, getting health clearances, x-ray.

This has been an eye opening experience, and i appreciate the years of experience that have commented on my post. thanks again for your help - time to call the vet and start checking out my female.

This is so refreshing to read! I truly appreciate your question, all the intelligent, thoughtful repsonses, and your ultimate decision. Thank you!

[Liesje]

Sounds like you're going about it all the right way! Maybe the female is not ILP but limited registration? Limited registration means she can remain intact but the breeder would have to lift the limit before any puppies could be registered. Can you tell us her full name or number, or scan the paper?

[BenderR]

After speaking with my vet, she has told me that due too my females allergies, she maybe undesirable as a dam as well. We are gonna proceed with blood testing to find out if its genetic or something in the house too determine if further testing is worth it.

Kinda a bummer...would've been really special too breed puppies with our first two dogs together, or atleast one of them. But hey - we didn't embark on this journey to do it with one shoe on either. It's all about the love and just being around this magnificent beast we call the German Shepherd.


My females mothers paperwork - Shauna vom Adelhaus Neuburg

as previously said the male wasn't registered and the gentlemen has since retired and moved so finding out any of that information is kind of null. He had the documentation of the dogs parents on his walls like a trophy collection, my eyes seen them but doesn't do much for proof in the eyes of breeding respectable puppies for ones self.

[wolfstraum]

If the sire of your female was not registered, then the female is fraudulently registered and will never get regular papers. She should be spayed to comply with the ILP paperwork.

As far as excellent lineage, please start studying the pedigrees of breeders dogs you find on here....note the titles and accomplishments of the dogs in the pedigrees, and then the peripheral pedigrees....Unfortunately, the lineage of your female's dam is not consistent in either AKC show lines, or German lines and the only titles are in the third generation. A positive is that many dogs are cited to be OFA certified. But that in itself is not enough to base a breeding upon.

Look through the rescue section....right now there are two very nice tempered purebred GSDs in a high kill shelter that I, among others, are trying to get permanent homes for...a 4 year old male and a 2 year old female. There are many many nice dogs who could fill your lives up without breeding pups from your wonderful pets....

Lee

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by BenderR

I have a 2 year old German Shepherd (black/tan). She is a long hair shepherd with above average traits (very much the pick of the liter), She is AKC PAL/IP registered. Very excellent temperment, above average work drive, very easily trained. (we taught her to crawl under fences and picnic tables in 45 seconds with a light push on her back off the down command and motioned her forward while saying "crawl" "good girl" "crawl" just to give an idea of this dogs intelligence levels.

Not to pick on you, but these are your first two German Shepherds. You don't compete with them, and I'm guessing you're not a part of a GSD club where you're around the breed a lot. BTW...I'm also not that far ahead of you to gauge these things either. My first dog, but I do compete and am part of a club. So I have a lot more to compare to.

You have absolutely no idea how to gauge her drives, temperament, intelligence, ect because you don't have anything to compare to. Just the fact that you say "above average work drive," what does that mean? What is "average work drive"? If you go to my GSD club you'll see a lot of dogs with very low work drive, compared to them my boy has extremely high drives...but that is not the average in the population as a whole.

Teaching a simple command doesn't prove intelligence, I'm not calling her dumb by any means, but many of us can train our dogs to do simple tasks quite quickly. The true test is being able to perform tasks on command, in a strange place, with tons of distractions, while being judged. The judging is key because it puts stress/pressure on the handler, and the dogs easily pick up on that stress.

I think your girl could've been a great candidate to breed if a lot of other things lined up. But there are just so many things stacked against her. I think you're making the right ethical decision to not breed, just enjoy your dog, and if you like her lines so much, the next time you want one, try to find those lines again.

[JackandMattie]

Originally Posted by wolfstraum

Look through the rescue section....right now there are two very nice tempered purebred GSDs in a high kill shelter that I, among others, are trying to get permanent homes for...a 4 year old male and a 2 year old female. There are many many nice dogs who could fill your lives up without breeding pups from your wonderful pets....

Lee

That's a really good idea, Wolfstraum. Thank you for bringing it up. The OP did mention dogs for his family, etc., that were affordable. Rescues can fit that bill.

And, kind of like breeding your own, you get an idea of what you're getting from the start. Actually, maybe even more so, b/c when you start with an adult dog, you already Know what it's gonna look like, can judge a thing or two about it's temperament...

So, you're already starting out with what you have determined to be a good match. And on top of that, the dogs I have rescued have only gotten better with time!

[BenderR]

You're assuming a lot, and ranting about a reading comprehension issue on your own behalf. I said our first two shepherds together, inferring my wife and I's first dog together in our house, I've been raising shepherds for 20 years passionately, and my wife with several other breeds for 15 years. Don't mean to be rude, but that was one **** of a rant that came off rather insulting.

Originally Posted by martemchik

Not to pick on you, but these are your first two German Shepherds. You don't compete with them, and I'm guessing you're not a part of a GSD club where you're around the breed a lot. BTW...I'm also not that far ahead of you to gauge these things either. My first dog, but I do compete and am part of a club. So I have a lot more to compare to.

You have absolutely no idea how to gauge her drives, temperament, intelligence, ect because you don't have anything to compare to. Just the fact that you say "above average work drive," what does that mean? What is "average work drive"? If you go to my GSD club you'll see a lot of dogs with very low work drive, compared to them my boy has extremely high drives...but that is not the average in the population as a whole.

Teaching a simple command doesn't prove intelligence, I'm not calling her dumb by any means, but many of us can train our dogs to do simple tasks quite quickly. The true test is being able to perform tasks on command, in a strange place, with tons of distractions, while being judged. The judging is key because it puts stress/pressure on the handler, and the dogs easily pick up on that stress.

I think your girl could've been a great candidate to breed if a lot of other things lined up. But there are just so many things stacked against her. I think you're making the right ethical decision to not breed, just enjoy your dog, and if you like her lines so much, the next time you want one, try to find those lines again.