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What would you prefer

6K views 43 replies 39 participants last post by  NewbieShepherdGirl 
#1 ·
Ok so here's the deal! I am so sick and tired of the uppiedy ups saying you should not breed your dog because you don't have papers for your dogs... SO WHAT! If you know your GSD is pure bred, you have both your male and female cert. for hips and elbows, are very healthy and void of any and all genetic deformities or diseases, why should you not breed them?

I see way to often these "pedigreed" dogs having so many health issues, so they may be papered and registered, doesn't give those owners the right to breed them over people who have impeccably healthy animals who would make very healthy offspring which would lead to future generations of healthy GSD's!

So what would you prefer, getting a GSD who has papers who does not have health certs? Or getting a healthy pup without papers from a breeder who's only focus is the health and well being of their puppies?
 
#3 ·
So how would I KNOW my dog is purebred if I don't have the pedigrees??

I've fostered many litters where the puppies looked NOTHING like the mom or dad (shelter dogs).

Just because two dogs LOOK like German Shepherds doesn't mean they are PUREBRED German Shepherds.

And by having the pedigree (and papers) I can trace the puppy's lineage and see for myself what health problems may have occurred.

You can have a sire and dam that are both OFA Excellent throw an entire litter of dysplastic puppies because in their background was a bunch of dysplastic dogs.

Genetics doesn't JUST come from the direct parents. It carries through the lines.
 
#5 ·
I would go with the dog with papers, sorry. I can look back at what produced the dog with papers. Also, there is usually a reason why a dog certain to be purebred does not have papers:

1. The dog or one of its parents was sold on a limited registration. A breeder somewhere sold that dog with the condition that it not be bred. Often times people take a dog with a fault on a limited registration, and for less money and promise not to breed the dog. I do not like to condone such dishonesty with my money.

2. The owner of the dog or the dog's ancestors have been suspended, temporarily or permanently from the breed club. You have to go some to get suspended. Either you have to forge paperwork, or you have to run a filthy, over crowded, and abusive puppy mill. There has to be a reason for the AKC to choose to discard you and all the money you provide them directly or indirectly with registrations. I do not want to give my money to people like that.

3. People who haven't got the first clue about dog breeding, suddenly discovered that there pet dog might be a gold mine. They got the dog without any papers because they didn't know anything about papers, and did not care about them. But now they want to breed their dog, and the bitch ain't spayed, so... They bought their pet dog without consideration about breeding, so their knowledge of the lines and genetics and what need to do in the way of breeding, whelping, and raising a litter are negligible. They do not know how closely the sire is bred to the dam. They have no clue. I don't want my money to go to these people either.
 
#8 ·
This about covers it all!! :thumbup: People who are breeding without papers are being totally irresponsible. The breed, as a whole, suffers because of this. There are TONS of pups and dogs out there right now in rescues and shelters that don't have papers. I'm sure most of them are really great dogs. When you breed, you're responsible for those lives that you have chosen to create. Dogs have a greater chance at having a bad life when they're bred by people who don't care about papers, pedigrees, etc. The people that buy those type of dogs are more likely to not have the knowledge or the resources to care for them. Especially when you're taking about a GSD, who isn't a "take it home and house break it and you're done" type of dog... I think the breeding of these dogs should be taken VERY seriously. Papers show what dogs are back there. Those traits (good and bad) can pop up in pups. Health problems included. So you having a healthy female doesn't mean she'll have healthy pups or stable pups... even bred to a healthy, stable male. If it were only that easy....
 
#6 ·
Never had a dog with papers. We have always had rescues. Since I neither want to show or breed, it's not that big of a deal for me. I want a healthy dog, but I believe papers or certifications cannot always guarantee a completely disease free dog.
 
#9 ·
Papers are for more than status. They are for more than proving a dog is purebred, though that is one of their advantages.

They are a blueprint for the genetic history of the dog. Knowing the dog's pedigree allows one to research the health and temperament of it's ancestors and other close relatives. This is imperative for making good breeding decisions. Many problems, both health and otherwise, are polygenic and recessive, meaning that they can be hidden in an individual dog in the sense that that dog does not express those problems, but the genetics for those problems are still there and may well come out in offspring. Researching the pedigree will provide insight into what problems exist in the line, and thus could possibly exist in the individual dog.

Without papers, you can't know the pedigree. Without knowing the pedigree, you can't learn the genetics of the bloodline and relatives, which provides important insight into what the dog might produce.

Since there are plenty of dogs being bred who have BOTH health certs (and performance titles proving temperament) as well as papers and documented pedigree, my answer to your question is neither. There is no reason for anyone to settle for a pup from unpapered, and thus of unknown heritage and bloodline parents, or for a pup from untested parents.
 
#10 ·
Luckily we are not forced to choose between those two lacking options! Buy from breeders that train/show/title their dogs in their particular venue, have a focused breeding plan, know the bloodlines and pedigrees, health/temperament test the breeding dogs, raise their dogs with care and compassion and have registrations for their breeding dogs.
 
#11 ·
my vote is neither as well, but if I HAD to choose it would be the reg'd dog.
 
#12 ·
I dont want anyone to get me wrong here... I myself go for dogs who are papered, but also are cert. for health, but there are lots of breeders who's dogs are papered but they could care less about the health...
 
#13 ·
Buying a breed with known issues has it's risks no matter what

You LIMIT those risks by buying from a breeder with dogs that are health certified and temperament tested whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, etc were all certified and tested as well

Not to mention if something does go wrong there are guarantees that most breeders will give you that last two years or longer. Also, if there's any issues you don't have to worry about rehoming as the breeder will take it back. The lifelong commitment and help a good breeder supplies is just as beneficial as the dog itself

To me buying from a responsible breeder makes me feel better and safer for my own benefit and the dogs, not superior to those who don't. I will never buy from a BYB, puppymill, or petstore. I will either buy from a responsible breeder or rescue
 
#15 ·
Nice to know that I'm an "uppiedy up". :) I don't care for either of the two choices you've laid out. If I'm buying a dog, whether another GSD, a Doberman, or any other breed (even a Chihuahua), I'd want one from registered, titled, and health tested parents.

I've frequently noticed that puppy sellers who say "papers don't matter" or "titles don't matter" usually don't do anything with their dogs other than breeding them.
 
#18 ·
Neither. The world is full of unwanted dogs. Why add to the problem?
 
#20 ·
I think you'd have to look long and hard for a breeder that doesn't have papers on his dogs but does all those health checks. Someone that doesn't care enough to have a pedigree on the dogs they're producing/using and yet they'll spend hundreds of dollars in order to get their hips certified and their DNA is clear of other known issues? Won't happen...

What's the point in breeding a dog without papers? It's kind of saying that the dog is so great...and amazing...although it hasn't been trialed or titled, that it needs to be bred and pass on its DNA over the 1000s of other dogs out there that are papered and titled. How does someone breeding a dog without papers know that their dog is genetically and physiologically superior to its peers and should be bred? They don't!
 
#21 ·
In my opinion, papers are a bare minimum. If you can't register the dog, then don't breed him. What dispute with the AKC? The AKC, will revoke a litter's registration in some cases. If you read the review they would say what happened on their discipline and oversite committee. It sounds complicated though. Someone would have to send in DNA I think and the sire would have had to have been DNA'd, and I don't know if there is an appeal process in that. If that was the case, then your pedigree might not be correct.

Another dispute might be that your dog's dam's breeder did not follow through with her agreement to the stud owner. The stud owner might have refused to register for lack of payment. If that is the case then the dam's owner was dishonest and sold dogs that she could not register and those dogs simply should not be bred. The owner of the stud deserves compensation, and, maybe they really are not the owner of the stud used. Who knows? Pedigree is in question.

See here's the thing, if you rescue or buy a puppy without papers, it is a pet. It is probably the result of someone breeding who shouldn't have been breeding. If you breed that dog, then you are breeding when you shouldn't be, and the only owners for the puppies you produce will be those who really do not mind if people have been dishonest or disreputable along the way.
 
#22 ·
I used to think the same way about those "uppity up" people, but now I understand more about breeding and breeders and o will drop appropriate money for a well pedigreed/papered/health guaranteed puppy. Since I got Gus from a BYB I will be doing a health check for hips/elbows after 2 yrs because I don't have a pedigree to seek advice on I have no idea on what is even possible to come up. And now instead of saying they're uppity up I'd say they're well informed and responsible.

Plus, I THINK it would be easier to handle a dog with a breed health issue than one with a temperament issue. I don't know that from experience but I just feel it would seem that way. I could very well be wrong.
 
#23 ·
Well, look at it this way. I have my mother's face and my father's temper. Anyone who knows the three of us notices that, and can see where they came from. But I also have my grandmother's hair color and my grandfather's depression. If you'd only seen my parents, you wouldn't know that these things were in my background. They may be possible chance outcomes of any "human breeding," but knowing that they are there in the genetics, you can see that the chance of passing these things on is greater.
 
#25 ·
I would also say neither. I have a purebred AKC registered dog and one of the best things about him is his perfect health (knock wood lol). He has never had a health issue in the three plus years he has been with us.

And knowing how easy it is to get a dog who has temperament issues, I want a breeder who can study a pedigree and know the lines generations back and see the potential issues and benefits in any particular breeding. This requires papers or a whole heck of a lot of trust that the second party in the breeding is being honest about his or her dog.
 
#26 ·
Two dogs might have healthy hips and elbows themselves but if I didn't see papers there's no way of me knowing that they were relatives or something...I'd have to say neither too, sorry.
 
#27 ·
I would prefer the healthy pup/dog. Papers do not mean anything to me, I have had only one dog in my life that has had papers and I don't even know where they are. I also don't think that just anyone should breed. Most of the time I don't even understand why someone would want to be responsible for finding suitable homes for 10 pups. I could never do it.
 
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