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Old 01-31-2013, 03:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default What would you prefer

Ok so here's the deal! I am so sick and tired of the uppiedy ups saying you should not breed your dog because you don't have papers for your dogs... SO WHAT! If you know your GSD is pure bred, you have both your male and female cert. for hips and elbows, are very healthy and void of any and all genetic deformities or diseases, why should you not breed them?

I see way to often these "pedigreed" dogs having so many health issues, so they may be papered and registered, doesn't give those owners the right to breed them over people who have impeccably healthy animals who would make very healthy offspring which would lead to future generations of healthy GSD's!

So what would you prefer, getting a GSD who has papers who does not have health certs? Or getting a healthy pup without papers from a breeder who's only focus is the health and well being of their puppies?
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Neither.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
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So how would I KNOW my dog is purebred if I don't have the pedigrees??

I've fostered many litters where the puppies looked NOTHING like the mom or dad (shelter dogs).

Just because two dogs LOOK like German Shepherds doesn't mean they are PUREBRED German Shepherds.

And by having the pedigree (and papers) I can trace the puppy's lineage and see for myself what health problems may have occurred.

You can have a sire and dam that are both OFA Excellent throw an entire litter of dysplastic puppies because in their background was a bunch of dysplastic dogs.

Genetics doesn't JUST come from the direct parents. It carries through the lines.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Neither.

I want a puppy out of registered dogs with health certs and titles.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I would go with the dog with papers, sorry. I can look back at what produced the dog with papers. Also, there is usually a reason why a dog certain to be purebred does not have papers:

1. The dog or one of its parents was sold on a limited registration. A breeder somewhere sold that dog with the condition that it not be bred. Often times people take a dog with a fault on a limited registration, and for less money and promise not to breed the dog. I do not like to condone such dishonesty with my money.

2. The owner of the dog or the dog's ancestors have been suspended, temporarily or permanently from the breed club. You have to go some to get suspended. Either you have to forge paperwork, or you have to run a filthy, over crowded, and abusive puppy mill. There has to be a reason for the AKC to choose to discard you and all the money you provide them directly or indirectly with registrations. I do not want to give my money to people like that.

3. People who haven't got the first clue about dog breeding, suddenly discovered that there pet dog might be a gold mine. They got the dog without any papers because they didn't know anything about papers, and did not care about them. But now they want to breed their dog, and the bitch ain't spayed, so... They bought their pet dog without consideration about breeding, so their knowledge of the lines and genetics and what need to do in the way of breeding, whelping, and raising a litter are negligible. They do not know how closely the sire is bred to the dam. They have no clue. I don't want my money to go to these people either.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:37 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Never had a dog with papers. We have always had rescues. Since I neither want to show or breed, it's not that big of a deal for me. I want a healthy dog, but I believe papers or certifications cannot always guarantee a completely disease free dog.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorDog View Post
Neither.

I want a puppy out of registered dogs with health certs and titles.
I'm an "uppiedy up" that agrees with you GatorDog

Now, I will sit back and watch this thread burn.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:43 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
I would go with the dog with papers, sorry. I can look back at what produced the dog with papers. Also, there is usually a reason why a dog certain to be purebred does not have papers:

1. The dog or one of its parents was sold on a limited registration. A breeder somewhere sold that dog with the condition that it not be bred. Often times people take a dog with a fault on a limited registration, and for less money and promise not to breed the dog. I do not like to condone such dishonesty with my money.

2. The owner of the dog or the dog's ancestors have been suspended, temporarily or permanently from the breed club. You have to go some to get suspended. Either you have to forge paperwork, or you have to run a filthy, over crowded, and abusive puppy mill. There has to be a reason for the AKC to choose to discard you and all the money you provide them directly or indirectly with registrations. I do not want to give my money to people like that.

3. People who haven't got the first clue about dog breeding, suddenly discovered that there pet dog might be a gold mine. They got the dog without any papers because they didn't know anything about papers, and did not care about them. But now they want to breed their dog, and the bitch ain't spayed, so... They bought their pet dog without consideration about breeding, so their knowledge of the lines and genetics and what need to do in the way of breeding, whelping, and raising a litter are negligible. They do not know how closely the sire is bred to the dam. They have no clue. I don't want my money to go to these people either.
This about covers it all!! People who are breeding without papers are being totally irresponsible. The breed, as a whole, suffers because of this. There are TONS of pups and dogs out there right now in rescues and shelters that don't have papers. I'm sure most of them are really great dogs. When you breed, you're responsible for those lives that you have chosen to create. Dogs have a greater chance at having a bad life when they're bred by people who don't care about papers, pedigrees, etc. The people that buy those type of dogs are more likely to not have the knowledge or the resources to care for them. Especially when you're taking about a GSD, who isn't a "take it home and house break it and you're done" type of dog... I think the breeding of these dogs should be taken VERY seriously. Papers show what dogs are back there. Those traits (good and bad) can pop up in pups. Health problems included. So you having a healthy female doesn't mean she'll have healthy pups or stable pups... even bred to a healthy, stable male. If it were only that easy....
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Papers are for more than status. They are for more than proving a dog is purebred, though that is one of their advantages.

They are a blueprint for the genetic history of the dog. Knowing the dog's pedigree allows one to research the health and temperament of it's ancestors and other close relatives. This is imperative for making good breeding decisions. Many problems, both health and otherwise, are polygenic and recessive, meaning that they can be hidden in an individual dog in the sense that that dog does not express those problems, but the genetics for those problems are still there and may well come out in offspring. Researching the pedigree will provide insight into what problems exist in the line, and thus could possibly exist in the individual dog.

Without papers, you can't know the pedigree. Without knowing the pedigree, you can't learn the genetics of the bloodline and relatives, which provides important insight into what the dog might produce.

Since there are plenty of dogs being bred who have BOTH health certs (and performance titles proving temperament) as well as papers and documented pedigree, my answer to your question is neither. There is no reason for anyone to settle for a pup from unpapered, and thus of unknown heritage and bloodline parents, or for a pup from untested parents.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Luckily we are not forced to choose between those two lacking options! Buy from breeders that train/show/title their dogs in their particular venue, have a focused breeding plan, know the bloodlines and pedigrees, health/temperament test the breeding dogs, raise their dogs with care and compassion and have registrations for their breeding dogs.
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