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Stability in GSD Disappearing.

8K views 57 replies 30 participants last post by  KristiM 
#1 ·
Several unrelated threads recently had me mulling over whether I would actually want another GSD.

I think probably not. I know a couple of places I could probably get a stable dog.

My problem though is why does one have to do months to years of research to find a decent GSD.

To me any breed should have a stable temperament, to where you don't have to worry about them constantly. I have seen personally, and read about too many neurotic GSDs.

People blame BYBs all the time but where do their dogs come from.

The problem IMO is within the larger GSD community.

Dogs bred to extremes for sport and show.

Most of them will wind up in homes and yes some will be bred by the dreaded BYB but the overall direction of the breed is not coming not from them.

They work with whatever is out there that is bred by the big sport and show crowds.

A stable GSD with good health and temperament is becoming increasingly hard to come by.

People on other threads have discussed the lack of temperament for SD dog work. That is pathetic. The GSD was the go to dog for the blind and other SD work for years. They are now becoming less and less the dog of choice.

Most pet owners buy a particular breed "because they like it".
If you like GSDs then buyer beware.

This forum has some dedicated breeders on it but in the real world I don't really like a lot of today's GSDs.

I'm aware that this is happening in other breeds and that too is pathetic.

Perhaps someone will start a new breed with sanity and stability as their main goal.
 
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#3 ·
It does seem that there is a lot of major problems with our breed..well bred or byb...I have been blessed so far with Sib, but am always fearful of that dreaded cancer or bloat...Are other breeds afflicted as often or as severe as GSD's?
 
#5 ·
People blame BYBs all the time but where do their dogs come from.
Exactly this!!
I mean seriously...when all the raids with pit bulls went down and Michael Vick was arrested, the "old timers" dissed him for being a punk, or whatever, but where did he get his dogs? BYBs? So where did they get their dogs??

Someone, a breeders somewhere (dozens is more like it) wasn't (weren't) careful in placements, and that's the bottom line with all breeds.
Err, I mean the bottom line is always money...
 
#6 ·
Perhaps someone will start a new breed with sanity and stability as their main goal.
Starting a new breed won't fix anything. Just take a look at all the new "designer" dogs for sale (doodles and poos). I hope you don't think they're the answer to finding sanity and stability in a dog. Give it a few years, and your "new breed" will have problems too. GSDs have been a very popular breed for a very long time. That demand has led to poor breeding in an effort to chase dollars. Maybe the way to go is to find a rare breed dog with the qualities you want, and it shouldn't have the over breeding issues the modern GSD has suffered from (but I think it may be tougher to find the rare dog breeder than finding a good GSD).
 
#7 ·
I was half joking about a new breed but at one time not all that long ago the GSD came about as a new breed.

Taken from several different lines and I'll bet a lot of culling to arrive at a stable Jack of all Trades, good with kids and can settle in home dog.
Dogs that could work at numerous tasks and still settle.

Not a whole lot of them in the GSD population any more.
 
#9 ·
Why do you associate "sporty" with bad temperment? Stability is still strongly there in working lines. I said they might not be a good choice for "psychiatric" as I interpret that to mean "there to comfort and calm" someone. A working line will likely show distress at the handlers distress
 
#11 ·
Because people are breeding for specific characteristic, traits, or beauty as they see it. It doesn't matter if it's horses, dogs, birds. When you inbreed or linebreed too closely for certain wished for traits or looks then somewhere the negatives will get stronger also.

The vast majority of GSDs are in pet homes and most pet homes want stability and a dog they don't have to worry about law suits over.

The nerve base in the GSD is a dying characteristic.
 
#12 ·
All breeds have issues they are more prone to. Small breeds have them, large breeds have them. Dogs are always bred for qualities that are most desired. The first dog of any breed is nothing the same as the dog of that breed today.

You can take the best bred dog and chain it outside with no food or water, keep it unsocialized, unloved and abused and it will not have a stable temperament. That is how a byb has an unstable dog and therefore unstable puppies. Its a cycle. Not to mention society has a lot to do with why they aren't used. They considered aggressive breeds by social media.

GSDs have been in the top owned breeds for a few years now. There must not be something that wrong with them. Its all about what you want and can handle.
 
#13 ·
I think part of the problem is people are breeding for very specific things like a specific sport or a certain trait they want and not taking into account the wider temperament/health, so you get more issues with temperament or health that maybe you can control if you keep the dog in a very controlled environment but are not ideal for a home situation... So it seems things like aggression, dog aggression, fear issues, reactivity, allergies, and so on are becoming more common because breeders do not care about these things when they breed...
 
#14 ·
no one hates the disappearing nerve base more than myself ---

this "That's true Carmen but not what is happening IMO.

Sport dogs are getting sportier and show dogs showier (new word).
The cost is temperament and stability "

I keep trying to provide examples of dogs that "ARE"

and have another one to show - just need to figure out how and where -- wait for "Buffy"

these are important to all the Service Dog provider/breeders that are emerging lately.
 
#15 ·
I don't necessarily think your finding less dogs with good nerve but I think your rather finding more and more german shepherd dogs with bad nerve. Being one of the most popular dogs in the country, your bound to have crap stock producing more and more crap stock to meet the ever increasig demand. What is difficult, however, if weeding your way through the masses with subpar temperments and finding a dog with the temperment everyone knows shepherds should have.

Doing your research and resourcing reliable sources shouldn't be and isnt rocket science. Since when did people get so lazy as to not fully research into what they are purchasing? You get out of it what you put into it. Doesn't matter whether your buying a car, a house, a camera, or a german shepherd dog. Not all things are created equal and it takes a little bit of digging beneath the surface to see past aesthetically-pleasing websites, colorful advertisements, or someone preaching that they have the 'next best thing'.

As far as the generalizations of sport dogs and showline dogs being extreme one way or the other.... Well, go see them for yourself and follow your gut. If your in the market for a shepherd and go to check out the parents, the biggest question most people aren't asking themselves on a very basic level is "do the PARENTS of these puppies exemplify what IM looking for in a dog, structurally, temperamentally, etc?" If not, MOVE ON and keep looking.
 
#16 ·
In the late 1960's through the 1970's my next door neighbor from childhood had two GSD's. They were mostly kept in the backyard, but never aggressive to me along our shared fence, they'd let me pet them, they were quiet. It was our Beagle that was the terror. At the business my father managed in the Bronx in the late 1970's, they took in and housed a stray family of GSD's. No issues with them. It was being around these dogs that made we want a GSD when I got older.

I don't know how much has changed over the years, but it does seem strange the intensity and duration of training many of these dogs require (including my own) to get a good family pet.

And speaking of a SD for the blind, the man down the street has one. The first one I met was a male GSD, he would let his dog stop and smell my former GSD mix and we would talk briefly, he was nice. His 2nd SD GSD, a female, is definitely dog reactive - her hackles go up and has a fierce bark, thank goodness no pulling or chasing. We can't stop and talk anymore.
 
#20 ·
The amount of training a dog requires is simply good marketing coupled with our "I want results now!" Mentality. Same reason our divorce rates are high, and kids medicated but still failing basic schooling
 
#17 ·
I can't say I agree abakerr. The average person should NOT have to do "research" on dogs for a year to find a decent dog. It's one thing if you want to compete in sports/show, then yeah I get it, but for the average person? I tried for 6 months and still did not end up with a healthy dog and I considered myself dog savvy and asked tons of people for their opinions.

For anyone "just getting into" GSDs there's just no possible way to gain information about lines that took breeders decades to obtain. It's even more impossible with all the misinformation that is floating around. Strangers who see my GSD, 9 times out of 10, will tell me how glad they are that my shepherd isn't so "sloped" and how the "slope contributes to HD", "GSDs are all mean", blah blah blah. It's ridiculous. I don't even respond anymore to those comments; I just nod my head and smile because I can't be bothered to explain again for the millionth time.
 
#31 ·
Are we talking temperament qualities or health problems of the breed in this thread?

Regardless of how much research people do on a bloodline or cross, its foolish to say that they are somehow immune to the possibility of variability and I hope that wasn't the underlying tone of my previous post. There's always room for the opportunity of a thin nerved dog to crop up in a litter of projected good nerves, just as there is always room for the opportunity of bad hips to crop up in a litter of projected good hips. This type of unpredictability is not limited to dogs, this is life. I like to think that by doing your research, you minimize ( but certainly not eliminate) the risks involved and stack the odds in your favor. Do more research, better your odds. Most of the time it works out, sometimes it simply doesn't. That said, I feel like variability can be a two way street... Sometimes the most well balanced, stable, and healthy pet shepherd a person claims to have ever had has come from untitled and unregistered byb dogs found in the local paper. The odds are not favorable for this type of outcome under these circumstances but I'de be a liar to say its unheard of. Oh, the possibility in a world of possibilities.

On a more specific note, I remember the kennel/ bloodlines your dog came out of when you initially posted him. If you don't mind me asking, H/D aside (and btw I remember how severe his X-rays were... Poor guy), how do you feel his temperament as an adult matches up with what you expected when you were considering the bloodlines?
 
#21 ·
Me too Nancy, but it really isn't about me.

I have two dogs that may outlive me, so I'm not really concerned about my next dog.

Jack is very solid temperament. Zena is a little more skittish than I would like but is not afraid of people or other dogs and is not reactive. She is more hyper and twangy than Jack though.

I'm really referring to the neurotic dogs I see in public and all the problem dogs on here.

Hunter: In the circles of dogdom that you run in, you probably don't see a lot of what I'm talking about. Believe me there is a negative trend in the breed overall IMO.
 
#22 ·
OP, i am not sure every dog owner would have the same thing in mind when you say stability - do you mean docile, inactive, low prey drive, rock solid nerves, high thresholds, submissive, biddable, on/off switch, balanced drives....what exactly do you mean??

you have made some big claims about entire breed/s, i would like some clarification on what you are talking about if you please.
 
#23 ·
Well for a starter I'm not indicting a whole breed. I'm generalizing, so of course it doesn't apply to all.

Secondly, If people can't tell the difference between stable an unstable dogs, or people for that matter, then nothing I say will make much difference.

Just to take from your list though I would say; rock solid nerve, high thresholds, biddable, on and off switch. I personally don't care for dogs who submissively urinate or deficate from fear. I don't think hiding behind their owners is a sign of stability and freaking out over every new situation is not stability by my definition. Certainly not fear aggression.

I'm sure there are more but I think that's a good start.

I've been fortunate to have had a few really sound dogs with rock solid nerves, so I'm fairly comfortable in believing I can tell the difference and see what is happening to this breed.
 
#26 ·
I guess I've been lucky, the last German Shepherd I had with nerve issues was back in 1974 and my parents purchased him from the newspaper, since than my own dogs have been WGSL's and they have been wonderful dogs able to balance being great watch dogs with going to public stables and trail rides with strangers and strange loose dogs as well as being completely trustworthy with my farriors, feed delivery people, vets and even children that come to ride, I haven't had one bad Shepherd in close to 40 years!!!
 
#27 ·
I saw an awful lot of nervy GSD back in the early 80's. Heck, my father never wanted one when we were growing up because he didn't trust them and felt they were mean and dangerous (I am a child of the 60's and 70's). He is a dog person and loves dogs. I am not sure if the problem has gotten worse or if we are just now far more exposed to the problems because the internet and these message boards have broadened our world. I had to look at a lot of litters and talk to a number of breeders to find my first dog.

What I do see now is it is far harder to find good solid dogs for work and dogs with correct GSD temperament.
 
#33 ·
I've often wondered about this, are any of these problems really new? It also seems to me that every breed has these types of issues. I have been researching Aussies lately and there seems to be similar problems in that breed as well, people breeding for niches. You just need to connect with a breeder that likes and breeds for the qualities that you like. GSDs have a very obvious split between show and working, but that spilt is present these days in every working breed.
 
#28 ·
I don't see too many issues...I do see dogs that aren't up to MY standard when it comes to drive or temperament, but I wouldn't say they're problem dogs. The problem dogs are the ones that people are just plain too lazy to do any research on. They go to their local paper, craigslist, or whatever and find the first dog under $300. If you just do a google search on German Shepherd in my area you'll probably end up getting directed to my club and then find a very good shepherd for a family. Not one that will do schutzhund, not one that will excel at some other sport, but one that will be a very good family dog. Some of you don't agree with that, but that's the world we live in when it comes to GSDs. Everyone wants a dog that looks like their local K9 and Rin Tin Tin...but no one wants to do the work that comes along with a "working dog."

We get a few bad eggs at our club every once in a while...most of which come from pretty good breeders that just have a bad dog every once in a while and don't deal with it responsibly.
 
#30 ·
The problem dogs are the ones that people are just plain too lazy to do any research on. They go to their local paper, craigslist, or whatever and find the first dog under $300.
This is not 100% true all of the time. I'm not a lazy person and when I decided I wanted another dog I did go to craigslist and happened to find my GSD and yes she was under $300. Yes I might have got lucky, but she is one heck of a dog. Her temperament is what its suppose to be per the standard. I did my research afterward and was shocked at what some dogs were like. The GSD club by me has nothing but dogs that are aggressive, and both my dog and I looked at them like they were crazy. I have never gone back because I didn't want my dog around dogs like that. I have put a lot of time in to my dog and I couldn't be prouder of her. That is not laziness, it was a choice.
 
#29 ·
Temperament
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults.


A portion from the AKC breed standard.

If most GSDs had the temperament shown above there would be very few problems from this breed.

I've personally seen many that don't come close to what is written above.

Why?
 
#34 ·
I found this article one night, it was written in 1920 by Jay Hall. Besides having one of the earliest GSD breed standards (very interesting) he also said this (among other things)
The well-bred Shepherd untrained for police use is an admirable companion, loyal, affectionate, well mannered, obedient and in no way savage or solitary.
If you have time read the article (not very long) and see what you think. I think it shows how people (not all) perceive the breed today as compared to early on.

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles04/dogs65.shtml


 
#35 ·
I personally see the dogs getting more and more solid/stronger with sure temperaments as time goes. It's like comparing a 1920 automobile to a 2010 one in terms of performance and reliability, there is no match. But the good news is that if you still want a 1920 performance/reliability animal, they are still available.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Honestly, IT IS THE FORUM!
It's not the breed, it's the FORUM.
All those doomsday predictions are going seriously on my nerves. Yeah, there are bad dogs out there, there are horrible breeders but that is why every breed.
A forum is a small melting pot but it doesn't necessarily represent the German Shepherd in the entire world, because many people, that have a solid GSD will never even show up on a Forum like this one.

The breed is nowhere near doing as bad as everybody makes it sound because I, on the other hand, don't know about any of these kind of Shepherds that are portrayed on this forum, in my whole life I maybe met two or three of these type of dogs. So either people are just smarter about how they are managing them or the hype about downtalking the breed and producing something outlandish, is going above and beyond. There is no such thing as the perfect dog. It's a living being and not a machine. If you want something that doesn't react to anything at all, then get a stuffed puppet!

So don't let the Forum warp your view on the breed like it did with mine on cops shooting dogs. ;)
 
#40 ·
there is good and bad in every breed , and every breed tends to change as the years go on , because you have breeders (new & old) who have changed their ideas of what that breed should be.

Honestly, I can probably name 5-6 + breeders off the top of my head that I would purchase a dog from, sight unseen and "know" I would get what I wanted. Some are on this forum , some are not.

I really don't think it's hard to find a good stable german shepherd, obviously research IS involved, but knowing what "you" (general you) want, being able to trust that breeder will pick what's right for your situation is key.

While there are alot who post here with behavioral, health issues, they are seeking answers and that's what a forum is about correct?

You can advise people on where / how to go about purchasing a puppy, in the end they are going to do what they want to do.
 
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