test litters??

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by x11

true but keep in mind human ethics is not dog ethics, wild dogs will breed with about any receptive female including progeny yeah?

so can we keep this objective and not moral per se.

I understand dog ethics are not human ethics, but I'm talking about Breeder ethics? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a father/daughter pairing could produce serious health problems. I would not want a dog from such a pairing even if it was free.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Vinnie

I guess, when people bring in the pet overpopulation issue to a breeding discussion then I have to ask, do you think we should breed dogs at all?

It doesn't have to be so black and white--if I were anti-breeding, I probably wouldn't be here. All I'm saying is, with as many unwanted dogs as there are, if you're breeding a litter you'd better have a dang good reason for doing it. If all you're doing is "testing the pipes" to see if they work, well, that can be done via sperm count. If you are testing for hemophilia, yes, in the long run that could be of benefit to the breed (if there is no other way to test for it than a litter).

I know a Collie breeder who had an Oops litter between littermates--and to make matters worse, both were merle. She allowed the bitch to carry the litter to term and treated it as a "test" litter in order to see what recessives came up. I think there were 6 or 7 puppies, and 3 of them had merle-related issues; one was put down, two were placed in pet homes. Of the normal pups, I believe two turned out to be show quality and went to show homes. None of them had any of the recessives that the breeder was worried about, so she now has more knowledge of her line, which may benefit the breed in the long run.

Do I agree with letting this "test" litter come to term? I wouldn't have done it, but at least the breeder was responsible with the offspring.

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a father/daughter pairing could produce serious health problems. I would not want a dog from such a pairing even if it was free.

Not correct at all. At least not in the way people seem to assume. The simple fact that it is a father and daughter is not going to cause health problems just because they are so closely related. It doesn't work that way. It depends on what genes the dogs carry. IF they carry genes for health problems, then health problems will result. If they don't, they won't. That is no different than any other breeding of non closely related dogs. Where things differ here is that due to the close relation it is more likely that if one carries bad genes, the other will too.

This is one reason for test breedings in some cases, as such breedings are more likely to expose recessive genes that may otherwise remain hidden for a few generations. They can essentially be used to check the genetic health of a line of dogs, by concentrating the genes enough that if bad recessives exist in there they are more likely to be expressed.

But the nature of the breeding doesn't put bad genes in there. They are there or they are not. Close inbreeding is just more likely to expose them.. which sometimes is the whole point of doing the test breeding in the first place. Potentially risk one litter of problems in order to check the genetic health of the line for long term use rather than risk perpetuating bad recessives for a while only to have things blow up a couple generations down the road.

[Vinnie]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I guess that depends on the buyer? Personally I don't really care what the kennel name is and whether the dogs are "backed" by anyone other than myself, since it is my decision to buy them and they are my responsibility in full. Papers I do care about but only because I compete so I need them; I don't believe the paper itself makes the dog better quality or of more legitimate breeding. So in short, yes you are right it boils down to how each individual feels about breeding.

I totally agree. I think sometimes people place too much importance on a piece of paper and not enough on the actual dog.

Originally Posted by lhczth

Could it also be that the stigma that would be attached to the breeder by doing these test breedings is why they don't put their kennel names on the litters? All you have to do is read many of the threads on these boards to know that, at least in this country, a breeder doing this now days would be labeled as a "bad" breeder or a breeder that lacks "ethics".

That was my thinking too Lisa. Of course, it's just a guess but look at the beginning of this very thread and some of the statements people have made right here about these test breedings. I think it’s really hard to say this breeder is unethical based solely on how he registers (or doesn't register) the puppies. IMO that's a minor point.

Also Haus Ming – great example of very successful close line-breeding in the current day.

Originally Posted by Freestep

It doesn't have to be so black and white--if I were anti-breeding, I probably wouldn't be here. All I'm saying is, with as many unwanted dogs as there are, if you're breeding a litter you'd better have a dang good reason for doing it. If all you're doing is "testing the pipes" to see if they work, well, that can be done via sperm count. If you are testing for hemophilia, yes, in the long run that could be of benefit to the breed (if there is no other way to test for it than a litter).

If you’re breeding a litter (ANY LITTER) you should have a good reason. I don’t think anyone here is saying you should do this just to “test the pipes”. That's not what I'm talking about anyway.

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

Not correct at all. At least not in the way people seem to assume. The simple fact that it is a father and daughter is not going to cause health problems just because they are so closely related. It doesn't work that way. It depends on what genes the dogs carry. IF they carry genes for health problems, then health problems will result. If they don't, they won't. That is no different than any other breeding of non closely related dogs. Where things differ here is that due to the close relation it is more likely that if one carries bad genes, the other will too.

This is one reason for test breedings in some cases, as such breedings are more likely to expose recessive genes that may otherwise remain hidden for a few generations. They can essentially be used to check the genetic health of a line of dogs, by concentrating the genes enough that if bad recessives exist in there they are more likely to be expressed.

But the nature of the breeding doesn't put bad genes in there. They are there or they are not. Close inbreeding is just more likely to expose them.. which sometimes is the whole point of doing the test breeding in the first place. Potentially risk one litter of problems in order to check the genetic health of the line for long term use rather than risk perpetuating bad recessives for a while only to have things blow up a couple generations down the road.

Karlo vom Peko Haus is a good example. Famous dog, but check out his mother side, especially his grandmother Blanka vom Koerbelbach.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Freestep

It doesn't have to be so black and white--if I were anti-breeding, I probably wouldn't be here. All I'm saying is, with as many unwanted dogs as there are, if you're breeding a litter you'd better have a dang good reason for doing it. If all you're doing is "testing the pipes" to see if they work, well, that can be done via sperm count. If you are testing for hemophilia, yes, in the long run that could be of benefit to the breed (if there is no other way to test for it than a litter).

I know a Collie breeder who had an Oops litter between littermates--and to make matters worse, both were merle. She allowed the bitch to carry the litter to term and treated it as a "test" litter in order to see what recessives came up. I think there were 6 or 7 puppies, and 3 of them had merle-related issues; one was put down, two were placed in pet homes. Of the normal pups, I believe two turned out to be show quality and went to show homes. None of them had any of the recessives that the breeder was worried about, so she now has more knowledge of her line, which may benefit the breed in the long run.

Do I agree with letting this "test" litter come to term? I wouldn't have done it, but at least the breeder was responsible with the offspring.

Actually this is not true. I know of a very nice imported dog out of a World Sieger, who has had his sperm tested and tested, and has been bred to many bitches, some of these bitches have had puppies with other studs before being bred to him and some after being bred to him. So far he has not sired a litter but has had good sperm count with good motility.

As for dogs not being able to manage breeding because they simply cannot perform, I personally don't think they should reproduce. But the idea of using AI, AI sounds like an easy method of getting what you want. But, it really isn't. First of all with regular breeding, you take the bitch to the dog two or three or even more times, and if you get a couple of ties, chances are, if it is going to happen at all it will happen, and generally does happen. But with AI, you have to know exactly when she ovulates and then you have to do the AI a couple of times. This means a lot of progesterone testing. And, no, the little test where they put the blood on the card and then look at the color the stuff turns -- that really isn't accurate enough for a good chance of AI. So you go back every other day to pay for the expensive type of testing.

Then you have to have a vet willing to do it. Some breeders will do it. But most of us would be going to the vet. Getting your boy collected is a procedure that is, well, kind of embarrassing. It isn't exactly cheap either. And once they get the semen, they test the sperm, and then they have to put it into the female. And then you have to hold her up forever so it doesn't just slide out, and it gets to where it needs to get to.

With fresh semen your chances are best, but even then, it is not as much of a done deal as a natural breeding.

Generally breeders will breed a young stud dog to a bitch who is an easy breeder and knows the ropes. The dog has to have confidence. If the bitch acts like she will tear his muzzle off, it may turn him off totally.

I can totally understand breeding a young male to ensure that everything is working fine before putting in the rest of the money you intend to spend campaigning and putting together a good resume on the boy. I am talking about a dog that you know the lines of, and have every reason to believe that he will be everything you are hoping for. And, I would put my kennel name on such a breeding.

In Germany they can do hips and elbows earlier than here, so they can get their SchH1 and Koer'd, their AD, and their hips scores by 12 or 15 or 18 months, so a breeding at 15 or 18 months might fall within the criteria. I am not a hundred percent sure, but I think they can breed at 18 months, or maybe even younger there. I think that to be in the adult class at the sieger show, you have to have a SchH1 for the first show, the next year to remain eligible you need a SchH3, by 3 or 4 most of the dog have a progeny group,

These people want to work and spend time with their dogs too, and if the results of a test breeding aren't good, there is no point continuing with that dog, they can sell a young trained dog, which frees up the time they would have spent on that dog, so they could spend that time on the dogs they are going to go forward with.

[martemchik]

Originally Posted by Vinnie

That was my thinking too Lisa. Of course, it's just a guess but look at the beginning of this very thread and some of the statements people have made right here about these test breedings. I think it’s really hard to say this breeder is unethical based solely on how he registers (or doesn't register) the puppies. IMO that's a minor point.

My only issue with this is that AKC registration or some type of reputable registry registration is usually step one in determining if the breeder is doing things by the book. Sure...for you, and many people on this forum, that understand bloodlines and have pretty strict standards for what you want out of a dog, a piece of paper might not matter, but for the other 99% of people that own dogs it's a pretty big deal if you're going with a breeder (and paying $xxxx.xx).

Everytime someone here asks about a dog or a pedigree, the first thing that happens is people look up that pedigree, look up the other dogs in the pedigree, and see how good they are doing/what they are producing. Well if the breeder is producing dogs that aren't registered...that might be having issues...and they're coming out of one of the sires or one of the dams that you're planning on getting a litter from, how is that fair/ethical?

I get it, I've owned a GSD for 2.5 years. I have made contacts through training/trialing and I know where my next pup is coming from. You're right, the piece of paper means nothing to me because I've seen the dam work, I've trained with the dam, and I trust her owner to pick an amazing male to pair with her. But for people that don't know these things, that are looking for their first dog, or their second dog, and aren't involved in the world to know breeders personally, these under the table breedings could be an issue.

BTW...the reason I don't care to discuss the ethics of it when it comes to Germany is because their system is under much more control than ours is. We have enough problems with a pet overpopulation, getting "breeders" to work/show/trial their dogs, getting "breeders" to health test, that it is my personal belief we really shouldn't be saying "well, since you know what you're doing, its alright if you have an uregistered litter or two once in a while."

[qbchottu]

For the SV:
Minimum Age of the Breeding Animal:
The male must have had his 2nd birthday by the time of the breeding. Bitches must be at least 20 months old by the first breeding use (date of mating).
SV Rules for Breeders and Breeding

For AKC:
Keep in mind that AKC Rules do not allow, except with special documentation, the registration of a litter out of a dam under 8 months or over 12 years of age at the time of mating, or by a sire under 7 months or over 12 years of age at the time of mating.
Responsible Breeding Steps - Wait for your bitch to come into Season

[selzer]

Oh, I don't know if the bitch or dog is 12 years and still capable, I would think that was testimony of the hardiness of the lines.

Thanks for the info on the age of the breeding in the SV.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by selzer

Actually this is not true. I know of a very nice imported dog out of a World Sieger, who has had his sperm tested and tested, and has been bred to many bitches, some of these bitches have had puppies with other studs before being bred to him and some after being bred to him. So far he has not sired a litter but has had good sperm count with good motility.

That's really interesting!

As for dogs not being able to manage breeding because they simply cannot perform, I personally don't think they should reproduce. But the idea of using AI, AI sounds like an easy method of getting what you want. But, it really isn't.

Yep I agree. Dogs with low libido or dogs that are so aggressive they cannot be bred (at the right time)....I don't think they should be bred.

I'm allowing Nikon to be used for an AI but it's because of distance and not wanting to travel, not problems with either dog. The breeder is paying for everything and an additional non-refundable deposit to me for being willing to do the AI (I keep the money even if there is a problem or it doesn't take and I'm not obligated to try it again). My normal vet will do AI but does not ship semen so he referred me to three others who will collect and ship. Two are too far for me to go on a moment's notice when the bitch is ready. One is close to my work but costs 2-3 times as much, but again the breeder is footing that bill. If she wants me to be able to leave work and get the semen shipped then this is the repro vet I'll have to use. The hospital does a lot of these and they set everything up through her, all I have to do is produce my male when they call me. I had him collected once already to make sure he would allow it (he does) and had good sperm but didn't pay since he was already at the vet for 3 year vaccinations. It seems like quite a hassle for the bitch owner and very expensive, but hey it's her money and her female. She said she's done them before and the litters took.