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Old 12-27-2012, 01:24 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I understand why something like this would be done, but I'm really questioning the ethics behind it. IMO you're really starting to blurr the line when it comes to ethical breeding when you're not putting your name behind your puppies "just in case."

I get why the breeders, especially the ones that understand how things work in Europe, are defending these practices. They make sense to do genetically and also for the future of lines, but something about it just seems a bit fishy to me. Not sure if I can write out the reason but it does strke some chord in my personal ethics. Europe has rules about inbreeding and titles/surveys, and this is something the US doesn't have, so to me doing a breeding "off the books" is really pushing the envelope on a system that is already pretty wide open.

I've started comparing it to the other situations that the forum or the general public finds "taboo" about breeding. (BYB, breeding an untitled dog, some of you believe a show dog shouldn't be bred because it doesn't have working titles, ect) And I don't know where I would rank this on the "bad list" but it is my personal opinion that it belongs somewhere on there. And yes, we will all have our opinions on it, as we do on a lot of breeder practices, but this is not something I would support.

If the breeder can really make sure those dogs go to homes where they won't be bred, discarded, ect., I think it's alright, but can anyone really guarantee that? If there are 10 puppies and the breeder has homes for 8, what are they going to do with the other 2? I'd really have to trust the breeder, and probably know them personally for years in order to think that what they did was alright. It would take a lot more than decades of "successful" papered dogs from a kennel to convince me that a "test breeding" is alright.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:02 PM   #32 (permalink)
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No, I get that, but its a lot to ask of a person to raise a puppy that they won't be able to trial or show. That's my point. I guess people might be different, but from what I've seen, rarely do you find that people that like showing/trialing want dogs that they can't do that with. So, say the person already has 2 dogs, if they're thinking about adding another one, they'll probably want one they can trial and train along with the other two rather than just train.

I'm looking at adding a puppy this year...I want one that I can train/trial along side my current one. If I get a dog that I can't do that with, I won't have another dog for a very long time as we don't have the room for more than two dogs. So even if I was really close friends with a breeder doing this, I don't know if I'd be willing to help them out. It's not just a couple month thing, its a decade in which I wouldn't be able to get another dog and pursue my passion.
Let's say you get green/white papers, you can title the dog, get it breed surveyed and the progeny of that dog will get pink papers, once it fulfilled all the requirements. So not having pink papers doesn't mean you can't do anything with the dog. Getting a dog titled is not nearly expensive as in the US. Especially when you have the club right in front of your door, however, travelling from show to show, breed survey to breed survey is a different story.

My club charged a fee of 25 Euros per year for the membership and no fees for the helper.

So while the dog may have the IPO1 but is without the breed survey the puppies get white/green papers, once that dog went through all the requirements, and is breed surveyd, the pups out of that dog WILL get pink papers.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:17 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Maybe OP could elaborate, but if he is talking to someone in Germany, then its a little different due to what Mrs. K just described. It makes sense to me, its kind of like having a dog on limitted registration but still being able to breed it once its achieved certain things and those pups will be able to get their full registration.

We don't have that kind of system in the states so I read it as, the breeder is producing a litter and not registering it with the AKC. In affect these pups don't exist in the AKC database even though they were produced by a well known, reputable breeder. So if its a mistake...no one will ever know unless somehow the information gets out that they produced some subpar puppies.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:28 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I would think for a breeder in the US not registering the pups with the AKC at all would be not so much to hide anything as it would be to help ensure that the offspring of a test breeding were not bred themselves. If someone wanted to participate in performance events with one of those pups, they could do so with an ILP/PAL.

Now if the offspring did turn out very well, to the point where they were breeding quality themselves or perhaps one or more owners did want to participate in events that required actual registration, the litter can always be registered by the breeder at a later date. Not being registered when placed as puppies doesn't mean they can't ever be registered. The breeder can always go back and register them, even years later.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:24 PM   #35 (permalink)
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There is no litter, but male is allowed to breed the female when she is not ovulating and he practices.
That is not biologically possible. If a female is not in estrus, therefore ovulating, she won't allow the male to breed her. With other species you can use hormones to stimulate estrus in a female for this purposes, but not in the case of the bitch.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:38 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Yes, some females will stand the entire heat or allow breeding close to or after ovulation. Male will still breed. All you need to do is test prog levels and allow test breedings that won't lead to pregnancy.

Ever seen bully breeders use the breeding stand? Female doesn't have much say in it - doesn't mean the breeding can't happen.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:49 PM   #37 (permalink)
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He probably did not breed the dog to have litters - he probably just wanted to make sure the dog can breed naturally. I have had more than one breeder explain that in order for the dog to breed naturally and vigorously later on, you have to allow him to practice on an older female before he hits 2 years - this is not a criteria across the board, but something that is routinely done when people are preparing a stud male. There is no litter, but male is allowed to breed the female when she is not ovulating and he practices. Breeding drive is important and there are many (rightfully) that don't breed to males that won't breed naturally so it's a skill that they practice before the age 2 allowed by SV.
This is actually a problem? You get males that will not or cannot breed naturally, and you have to let them "practice", for fear they won't know what to do when the time comes for a REAL breeding?

It makes you wonder how so many "oops" litters happen with two 9 month old mongrel puppies who were never given progesterone tests, sperm counts, or "training" to mate... how on Earth is it that we have a pet overpopulation problem?

If this is an issue with GSDs generally, or any lines specifically, I have not heard of it--but I suppose that if you selected away from natural breeding drive, you could eventually lessen it to the point where the dog has essentially no libido. But how could this happen? Why would it be allowed to happen? A population of animals with no drive or desire to procreate certainly would never survive in nature. If I recall correctly, this is why Germany doesn't allow AI, and it makes sense.

I know that some breeds cannot breed naturally because of their conformation, but I didn't think about whether natural libido exists in these breeds. I do think I remember hearing that inbreeding can cause it, so maybe we're talking about small gene pools here?
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:52 PM   #38 (permalink)
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If there were no test litters, would there be a German Shepherd Dog? The creation of this breed seems to have been a series of test litters.

Is it unethical? Only if you think breeding dogs is unethical (and yes, I know, some people believe there should be no more dogs bred).

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I find that there are two types of breeders that will breed closer than that - those that don't know anything, and those that think they know everything ;-)
Phooey!

Sometimes, that's true but not always. Close line-breeding (or inbreeding) is also undertaken by some very knowledgeable and respected breeders worldwide. They have been for many years going back to the origins of this breed.

Beowulf was a result of a 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister mating (or 2-2 line-bred on Horand, otherwise known as the first GSD). A lot of progeny from Beowulf are also a result of matings with his different 1/2 sisters with the same sire (2-2 line-breedings on Hector). A lot of close line-breeding stuff going on back in the beginning. And this was carried forward for a few years in an attempt to form this great breed.

Not only can close line-breeding be used to bring out the bad traits quickly but many times it is useful in solidifying some traits and also fixing traits. It is a very common practice among breeders. And not just purebred dog breeders. We're also talking about livestock, cats, rabbits, racing pigeons and the list goes on.....

The problem is more about when TOO much close line-breeding happens within the same lines.

To the OP - here's a nice article regarding ---> Inbreeding & Pedigree Dog Breeds by Malcolm B. Willis, PhD. I think you will find this an interesting read.
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Last edited by Vinnie; 12-27-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:05 PM   #39 (permalink)
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This is actually a problem? You get males that will not or cannot breed naturally, and you have to let them "practice", for fear they won't know what to do when the time comes for a REAL breeding?
Yes, in some breeds and dogs, libido is a problem.

Quote:
It makes you wonder how so many "oops" litters happen with two 9 month old mongrel puppies who were never given progesterone tests, sperm counts, or "training" to mate... how on Earth is it that we have a pet overpopulation problem?
It starts with males at 18 months or so - not technically 2 years as specified by SV, but old enough to allow them to practice and have test litters that you can hold papers on till the male is of age. Keep in mind that AKC allows for litters much earlier and many do breed well before 2.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:13 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
If there were no test litters, would there be a German Shepherd Dog? The creation of this breed seems to have been a series of test litters.

Is it unethical? Only if you think breeding dogs is unethical (and yes, I know, some people believe there should be no more dogs bred).

Sometimes, that's true but not always. Close line-breeding (or inbreeding) is also undertaken by some very knowledgeable and respected breeders worldwide. They have been for many years going back to the origins of this breed.
Exactly. I am not sure why everyone is so up in arms about inbreeding and linebreeding. There would be no purebreds if there was no inbreeding. Inbreeding when done right has value - but you don't always get positives. The negatives were probably (very likely) culled early on in breeding programs. There is literature that describes test litters and the value of the information obtained from these breedings. I don't think it should be done haphazardly in this day and age, but when done right, it can produce results.
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