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Old 12-27-2012, 12:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I can't imagine that a breeder has 6-10 friends that are willing to take on a dog that doesn't have papers and do their venue of choice. I figure you'd end up selling these dogs to lower quality pet homes (possibly higher) but those homes probably don't have enought experience to give that much valuable feedback to the breeder.
Actually, when you breed and trial your life evolves around the sport and you most likely have friends that are involved in the sport because not many outsiders understand the obsession you have with the dogs.

Most likely, not the entire litter will be placed for feedback. The litter is evaluated from day one and an experienced breeder can already see if it's worth it or if it isn't and most likely, depending on the number of the litter, 3-4 pups may go into feedback homes.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:28 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Actually, when you breed and trial your life evolves around the sport and you most likely have friends that are involved in the sport because not many outsiders understand the obsession you have with the dogs.

Most likely, not the entire litter will be placed for feedback. The litter is evaluated from day one and an experienced breeder can already see if it's worth it or if it isn't and most likely, depending on the number of the litter, 3-4 pups may go into feedback homes.

No, I get that, but its a lot to ask of a person to raise a puppy that they won't be able to trial or show. That's my point. I guess people might be different, but from what I've seen, rarely do you find that people that like showing/trialing want dogs that they can't do that with. So, say the person already has 2 dogs, if they're thinking about adding another one, they'll probably want one they can trial and train along with the other two rather than just train.

I'm looking at adding a puppy this year...I want one that I can train/trial along side my current one. If I get a dog that I can't do that with, I won't have another dog for a very long time as we don't have the room for more than two dogs. So even if I was really close friends with a breeder doing this, I don't know if I'd be willing to help them out. It's not just a couple month thing, its a decade in which I wouldn't be able to get another dog and pursue my passion.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:44 PM   #23 (permalink)
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As far as papers go, in Europe the pups wouldn't be able to be papered because the parents would meet the qualifications for doing so. There are also a lot of people who would be willing to take a well bred dog without papers. I do see a pup from a test breeding done by a responsible breeder where the lines are well known, the parents evaluated in some way just maybe not official titles and show ratings yet, the breeding pair is carefully selected and the litter is bred for a purpose as different than random cheap "BYB" pups without papers.

As for what these feedback homes are, I have no idea. Never done this so never had cause to look into it. But they don't have to be active sport/show people who need papered dogs in order to serve the breeder's purpose. Maybe they're experienced people who are retired from competition but still want the same quality of dog that they had in the past. Maybe they are friends and family and neighbors who are just pet owners, but are close enough to the breeder that the breeder can easily keep tabs on the pups and maybe test them himself every few months as they are maturing. The offspring from a test breeding don't need to be winning titles and competitions for the breeder to be able to get the information that they need out of the test. It's not uncommon, and clearly the breeders doing it are able to find appropriate homes for the pups where they can keep tabs on them as needed. I'd also wager that the majority of the time those pups are better bred and better placed than a random breeding so I don't agree with equating it to BYB type breeding.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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How many adult dogs do you see being offered from brokers and even the occassional one on Eurosport k9 , that have no papers , but are clearly purebred . They could be from a test litter - to see the wisdom of combinations early on , to make better decisions . Those progeny may very well end up in service where papers don't mean much . The dog is evaluated . The dog either passes evaluation or fails .
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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If you go to the book by Winifred Strickland and Jimmy Moses, the best way to get a champion is out of a champion, and you breed a daughter back to her champion father. But they are all about culling too. They aren't talking about fixing them and selling them on a limited basis to pet homes, either. They say it is one thing to cull puppies that are off color or weak (I am paraphrasing) but when the puppies are equal in quality, and you need to cull some that is hard.

Breeding sire to daughter, mother to son, will not create temperament or issues. But because there are recessive genes present and the pups will have double, you are going to get some of whatever is back there out. So if you want to know if your dog carries the gene for long coats, or something you might do a test litter.

Know you cannot just know on some of this stuff. Some of the genetics are cut and dried, some are less so: if you breed an affected dog to an affected dog, you will get so many affected, so many carriers, if you breed an affected dog to a carrier, so many affected, so many carriers, some unaffected, if you breed an affected dog to a non affected dog, so many carriers, so many non-affected -- whatever. It is easy to see if a dog is affected, but the only way to know if a dog is a carrier is to breed it back to a known carrier or affected dog. That would be a test breeding.

It does not have to be something nasty, it could be long coats, or black color, and other stuff.

As for incest, that is applying human moral/religious/societal codes to animals. There is nothing disgusting or horrifying about it, because dogs do not have the moral codes programmed into them. For humans it makes sense, continued in breeding will reduce the gene pool and cause a degradation in health etc. And for the protection of children and families it was necessary to have a taboo on close family relations. But animals are simply not covered under this code, though in general breeders want to be conscience of pedigrees so that they do not breed generation after generation of close inbreeding.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:48 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I once heard a breeder say he imported a young untitled male (around 18 months I think) and bred him to one of his females "to see if the pipes were working". I was a bit shocked to hear that... is that a good reason to breed, just to "test the pipes"? I don't think so, but others told me that Euro breeders do "test breedings" all the time. To me it doesn't make much sense, but whatever. My biggest concern would be that the pups are dealt with responsibly.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:49 PM   #27 (permalink)
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FWIW I'm keeping a dog from one of Nikon's first litters as "feedback" (I guess you can call it that). I truly want to know what he produces and I guess the best way to find out is to live with it Of course it's just *one* dog but IMO that's better than nothing, and I can't realistically stalk all the owners of all the other dogs for constant feedback. Plus not being the breeder myself, I'm not involved in placing the dogs so I can't say that they'll all go to sport homes or show homes or working homes and gauge their progress there. I know *I* train, show, title, work, and trial all my dogs so I'm keeping a pick back for myself.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:51 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I once heard a breeder say he imported a young untitled male (around 18 months I think) and bred him to one of his females "to see if the pipes were working". I was a bit shocked to hear that... is that a good reason to breed, just to "test the pipes"? I don't think so, but others told me that Euro breeders do "test breedings" all the time. To me it doesn't make much sense, but whatever. My biggest concern would be that the pups are dealt with responsibly.
No, I don't think that's a very good reason. We had the same concern with Nikon so all I had to do was take him to a vet, had him collected (took about 15 seconds and Nikon's 4 years old, never been bred, never lived with intact females, has never exhibited any sort of "sexual" behavior), and the sperm were checked under a microscope. His very first "shot" ever and the vet said he's prefectly healthy as far as viable sperm and how easy it was to collect them. I paid nothing for the exam since he was there for a vaccine but I believe an exam for this would have been $35, definitely under $50. Sure beats having to time a breeding and whelp an entire litter just to prove the dog has swimmers!

I think the other reasons mentioned in this thread make much more sense and are perfectly alright and quite common.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:05 PM   #29 (permalink)
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As far as papers go, in Europe the pups wouldn't be able to be papered because the parents would meet the qualifications for doing so. There are also a lot of people who would be willing to take a well bred dog without papers. I do see a pup from a test breeding done by a responsible breeder where the lines are well known, the parents evaluated in some way just maybe not official titles and show ratings yet, the breeding pair is carefully selected and the litter is bred for a purpose as different than random cheap "BYB" pups without papers.

As for what these feedback homes are, I have no idea. Never done this so never had cause to look into it. But they don't have to be active sport/show people who need papered dogs in order to serve the breeder's purpose. Maybe they're experienced people who are retired from competition but still want the same quality of dog that they had in the past. Maybe they are friends and family and neighbors who are just pet owners, but are close enough to the breeder that the breeder can easily keep tabs on the pups and maybe test them himself every few months as they are maturing. The offspring from a test breeding don't need to be winning titles and competitions for the breeder to be able to get the information that they need out of the test. It's not uncommon, and clearly the breeders doing it are able to find appropriate homes for the pups where they can keep tabs on them as needed. I'd also wager that the majority of the time those pups are better bred and better placed than a random breeding so I don't agree with equating it to BYB type breeding.

It depends. They might get the white papers and if the parents are titled but not breed surveyed I believe they can get green papers just not the pink ones.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freestep View Post
I once heard a breeder say he imported a young untitled male (around 18 months I think) and bred him to one of his females "to see if the pipes were working". I was a bit shocked to hear that... is that a good reason to breed, just to "test the pipes"? I don't think so, but others told me that Euro breeders do "test breedings" all the time. To me it doesn't make much sense, but whatever. My biggest concern would be that the pups are dealt with responsibly.
He probably did not breed the dog to have litters - he probably just wanted to make sure the dog can breed naturally. I have had more than one breeder explain that in order for the dog to breed naturally and vigorously later on, you have to allow him to practice on an older female before he hits 2 years - this is not a criteria across the board, but something that is routinely done when people are preparing a stud male. There is no litter, but male is allowed to breed the female when she is not ovulating and he practices. Breeding drive is important and there are many (rightfully) that don't breed to males that won't breed naturally so it's a skill that they practice before the age 2 allowed by SV.

There are also litters produced out of males younger than 2 - they would just be registered later on when the male comes of age, and papers fudged. Why bother campaigning a dog that won't produce is one logic.
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