test litters??

[Xeph]

I guess those people willing to sell an old dog because they have to show/breed/train a new one will never understand that feeling, and what a terrible disservice that is, not only to the breed but to themselves as well.

That's a pretty arrogant assumption.

I have a bitch here that was purchased for show and breeding. She failed her OFAs. My husband and I recently had her spayed and are now looking to place her.

She's being placed because she cannot fulfill the purpose intended, and because of that, she will, most unfortunately, largely end up ignored, because we have other dogs that we need to work and title.

She's 3 years old and needs a home where she can have her own people and not be yelled at because she bullies the younger girls in the house.

On the flip side, I have a service dog who will be 9 years old in April. He will retire on his 10th birthday in 2014. When he retires, he won't be going anywhere. He'll hold down our couch and make me smile until his last days,

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Freestep

But you are a pet owner, not a breeder with multiple dogs working toward a goal for the good of the breed as a whole. When you have, say, half a dozen dogs, there is only so much time in a day that you can give, and you still need to raise up-and-coming pups. Where did you get your dog?

Buddy is from a SAR handler who breeds a limited number of dogs every so often for her own and other SAR handlers. Her dogs are indoor house babies. Tasha is from a rescue and Ivan is from a shelter.

You want a breeder to be knowledgable, experienced, successful. To acheive that, the person must train, work, trial and prove a LOT of different dogs in their career, so that they learn how to work with many different types of temperaments, select the ones for breeding, and hopefully improve upon what they have with each breeding.

Actually no I don't look for that in a breeder. I look for someone who loves and cares about their dogs. I don't look for papers, I could care less if they have titles or if they are shown. I do look for hips and other health issues but that is the only paper I want or care about and I would bet there are a lot more pet owners like me than the limited amount who are involved in show or other games.

How is it a disservice to the breed to give older dogs a "retirement" home?

Breeders IMO need to know their lines from start to finish. That includes the health issues of old age. Such as arthritis, cataracts, and other old age related issues. If a breeder doesn't ever keep a dog, live with that dog inside, how will they know if these issues crop up?

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Xeph

I have a bitch here that was purchased for show and breeding. She failed her OFAs. My husband and I recently had her spayed and are now looking to place her.

She's being placed because she cannot fulfill the purpose intended, and because of that, she will, most unfortunately, largely end up ignored, because we have other dogs that we need to work and title.

How sad... You have had her for three years but she is just "a bitch" who failed her OFAs. Does she have a name? I'm sorry, I just don't get it... and I don't think I ever will. I hope you find her a good home.

[Whiteshepherds]

Originally Posted by Freestep

So the breeder may offer the older "retired" dog for sale, just so they can live in a home and have attention lavished upon them by a family. Of course any breeder worth their salt is going to screen interested buyers and do right by the dog, first and foremost.

It's hard to get past the double standard. If a pet owner came on the forum and said they wanted to get rid of their 8 year old dog because she wouldn't play fetch and couldn't do agility anymore there would be a 200 page thread telling them to suck it up.

I can understand a breeder getting rid of a dog when it's younger but once they hit a certain age, especially 8, 9, 10 years old, it doesn't sit right with me either. It seems like a cruel thing to do to an older dog that's served someone well.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Whiteshepherds

It's hard to get past the double standard. If a pet owner came on the forum and said they wanted to get rid of their 8 year old dog because she wouldn't play fetch and couldn't do agility anymore there would be a 200 page thread telling them to suck it up.

True, but I wouldn't be one of those people... regardless of whether I think they should keep their dog, the fact is, if they don't want the dog, I think the dog needs to get into a home where it IS wanted. You can't talk a person into wanting something, and pressuring a person to keep something they don't want leads to resentment, which is a bad place for both dog and owner.

But there is a fundamental difference between a pet owner who got a dog and now wants to dump it because they "don't have time", and a breeder who is raising multiple dogs, training, working, trialing, and showing them, and sells puppies, places older dogs. Both love their dogs, but the breeder also loves the *breed*. They take a larger view than the average pet owner. In order to do good for the breed, the breeders' time should be devoted to making healthy, sound puppies, and raising/training the next generation. But at the same time, they cannot take on more dogs than they can comfortably handle.

So what you folks are saying is that a breeder should keep ALL their dogs until they die? Some do... but that would mean they could not breed for themselves very often, lest their numers get too high. The less GOOD breeders are breeding, the less of a positive impact they can make, and the more opportunity opens up for less-than-good breeders for the pet market... and then the whole breed suffers.

Personally, if it were the right dog, I'd jump at the chance to adopt a senior retired dog from a breeder! Well trained, well seasoned, WYSIWYG, no housebreaking, puppy stuff, etc... sounds like a great deal to me!

[Mary Beth]

Originally Posted by Freestep

True, but I wouldn't be one of those people... regardless of whether I think they should keep their dog, the fact is, if they don't want the dog, I think the dog needs to get into a home where it IS wanted. You can't talk a person into wanting something, and pressuring a person to keep something they don't want leads to resentment, which is a bad place for both dog and owner.

But there is a fundamental difference between a pet owner who got a dog and now wants to dump it because they "don't have time", and a breeder who is raising multiple dogs, training, working, trialing, and showing them, and sells puppies, places older dogs. Both love their dogs, but the breeder also loves the *breed*. They take a larger view than the average pet owner. In order to do good for the breed, the breeders' time should be devoted to making healthy, sound puppies, and raising/training the next generation. But at the same time, they cannot take on more dogs than they can comfortably handle.

So what you folks are saying is that a breeder should keep ALL their dogs until they die? Some do... but that would mean they could not breed for themselves very often, lest their numers get too high. The less GOOD breeders are breeding, the less of a positive impact they can make, and the more opportunity opens up for less-than-good breeders for the pet market... and then the whole breed suffers.

Personally, if it were the right dog, I'd jump at the chance to adopt a senior retired dog from a breeder! Well trained, well seasoned, WYSIWYG, no housebreaking, puppy stuff, etc... sounds like a great deal to me!

Well said and I agree. Breeders will sometimes have on their websites something about retired dogs being avaialbe. West Coast German Shepherds in California is one example. The breeder retires her females at 6 years of age and spays them first before placing them for a small adoption fee in pet homes. She also has a nice explanation of why she does so.

[onyx'girl]

I would also be very happy to have a retired breeding female. I think it would be an honor! Karlo's Grand Dam is in a wonderful home and we are lucky to get to see her every now and then~and you bet I take pics of her every chance I get!
Karlo's mom also was retired from breeding and went on to be a therapy dog for a girl with CP. Had she stayed with the breeder, her life would have been fine, but she didn't get along so well with the other breeding females so going to a home where she could be spoiled rotten and given one on one attention and doing a job every day is much better for her.
The breeder keeps in touch so knows every health issue that arises with Grand Dam and Dam. Just because the dog isn't living with the breeder doesn't mean the health history/longevity, etc is not going to be documented. But I guess that does depend on the placement and the breeder, of course.

[selzer]

I think that most breeders begin with one or two bitches, and they think they will keep them, keep all their girls for life. I had my Arwen until she passed naturally, and Jenna and Babsy aren't going anywhere, ever.

But I have no problem with people who keep bitches until age six and then alters and places them. That bitch can live for six or more years and have good years in their new home, being loved on by everyone. I think when some breeders sell a dog, cash changes hands, papers are signed, and the dog and new owners walk out of the life of the breeder. And unless there is some problem right away, that will be the end of it. For others, the breeder and new owners communicate.

In fact, I think that in some cases, you can get better information on how your dog lived from a new owner, who lives with the dog in a home with other people and maybe another dog. But not in a kennel situation. Most of our dogs are going to go to homes, not kennel situations. Perhaps a dog would thrive in that situation in their later years, better than being one of 12 or one of 20, or one of even more than that.

If you buy a puppy for a pet and you are thinking that down the line you might do fly ball or herding or agility with the puppy, and you find out your pup is unsuited to any of those things. You can get another puppy and do those things, and keep the first as a pet, and it really doesn't have to be a terrible hardship. It does not make sense for pet owners to have a pack of dogs.

People who work with their dog for a living, or people who show and/or breed dogs are probably better judges of whether it is better all around to keep a pup who washes out for any reason, or to find them a good home, where the reason they washed will not really matter at all.

A three year old bitch has a lot of pet years ahead of her. Her OFAs did not come back as breedworthy, and therefore, really, it is understandable why one would not want to show her either. Shows are really not to prove who's dog is prettiest. It is to prove a dog's conformation to the breed, and therefore whether the dog is breedworthy. Not all people who show are looking to breed, but a dog who isn't breedworthy for an invisible cause, be it health or temperament, they should not be shown. But that dog will make a great pet. Someone will be happy to have her and will love her.

It really is all about the individual dogs to breeders. There is absolutely nothing to cleaning poop and giving food and water to a dog. Ten is no harder than nine for the basic care. For the right home, it does not matter if the dog is 3 or 4 or 6 or 8, the breeder who is all about the individual dog will be the one who is open to rehoming a dog that isn't going to work out for them.

Keeping every pup womb to tomb clearly isn't what is best for the dog in every case.

[Xeph]

Does she have a name?

Yup, she does. It's in my signature. I didn't name my service dog either, but you're not all up in arms over that

Keeping every pup womb to tomb clearly isn't what is best for the dog in every case.

Absolutely true

And as luck would have it, there is somebody who is already interested in my girl, even with her hip issues. She'd live in the lap of luxury, that's for sure. And she wouldn't be on the back burner never to come to the front again while I work my other animals.

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Mary Beth

Well said and I agree. Breeders will sometimes have on their websites something about retired dogs being avaialbe. West Coast German Shepherds in California is one example. The breeder retires her females at 6 years of age and spays them first before placing them for a small adoption fee in pet homes. She also has a nice explanation of why she does so.

Do you see my pretty baby in my avatar? Her is another picture of her.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...30999137_n.jpg

West German show line. Big famous kennel (I have her papers) I got her after she was dumped in a high kill California shelter and brought into the rescue system. I can't tell you how many absolutely stunning German Shepherds I see posted from those shelters every day in my facebook feed.

Here is one I saw this morning. It broke my heart. They think he is a dwarf... Maybe from one of those test litters?

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...33133817_n.jpg

I'm not against breeding. We wouldn't have these beautiful wonderful animals without it, however treating dogs like a commodity, doing incest test litters, that kind of stuff doesn't sit right with me.