test litters??

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Liesje

How is rehoming a dog when it's best for the dog different than rehoming a dog for its genetics? If the genetics were different the dog probably would be a better match... If a dog's temperament is not a match, that is because of genetics. Two ways to describe the same thing.

If you breed a test liter of dogs, and you decided that because they came out with spots/stripes or other wierd markings you are not going to paper or put your name on those dogs and then sell them anyway how is that ethical?

If you breed a father to a daughter and then give them away to friends even though there might be problems later how is that right?

You have a dog you raised and showed and titled and now she is too old to show or have anymore litters so you just sell her off... how is that fair? She has lived with you loved you her entire life but she doesn't fit your needs anymore so she gets to go somewhere else? I'm sorry but IMO there is a line. Selzer dog had a better opportunity offered for him, and that is entirely different from just getting rid of a dog just because they no longer fit your agenda.

[Liesje]

I've never done (and don't plan on doing) any of the things you mention so I can't really answer that. My dog is siring a "cross" litter in 2013 and not only do I fully intend on keeping a puppy for myself I have also asked to be listed as the co-breeder for the litter. There is no inbreeding for this litter and we're not breeding for color pattern or markings. The litter is a "test" in that no one can predict how every puppy will turn out. There is an element of "testing" in every litter being bred. The might always be problems later on, or there might not. That is why buyers who want protection will ask for warranties and breeders who agree will offer them.

Sometimes a "better opportunity" and "no longer fitting the agenda" are the same thing. Say you are visually impaired and buy a dog to train as a seeing eye dog but the dog ends up being really hyper and just tries to drag you around in public so you decide to rehome the dog to a person who wants a high energy dog for agility. The dog no longer fits the agenda but found a better opportunity somewhere else...

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Liesje

I've never done (and don't plan on doing) any of the things you mention so I can't really answer that.

But wasn't that the op's original premise, a breeder that did a test litter and refused to put their name on the dogs?


My dog is siring a "cross" litter in 2013 and not only do I fully intend on keeping a puppy for myself I have also asked to be listed as the co-breeder for the litter. There is no inbreeding for this litter and we're not breeding for color pattern or markings. The litter is a "test" in that no one can predict how every puppy will turn out.

Again didn't the op mention something about a father/daughter pairing?? IMO there is a big difference between a "test" like you are talking about and a "test" that was mentioned by the OP.

Sometimes a "better opportunity" and "no longer fitting the agenda" are the same thing. Say you are visually impaired and buy a dog to train as a seeing eye dog but the dog ends up being really hyper and just tries to drag you around in public so you decide to rehome the dog to a person who wants a high energy dog for agility. The dog no longer fits the agenda but found a better opportunity somewhere else...

Yes I can see how in some cases they would be the same thing, but a breeder like was described by the OP one who would breed father/daughter and do tests without putting their name on it... Do you really think no longer fitting the agenda would translate into a better opportunity for the dog?.. Well actually maybe it would to get him/her away from an unethical breeder.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

You have a dog you raised and showed and titled and now she is too old to show or have anymore litters so you just sell her off... how is that fair? She has lived with you loved you her entire life but she doesn't fit your needs anymore so she gets to go somewhere else? I'm sorry but IMO there is a line.

I guess I look at it differently.

For a breeder who is dedicated to the breed as a whole, they may be able to do more good for the breed by training and trialing as many dogs as they can, without neglecting anyone else. Breeding, training, working, trialing is incredibly time-consuming work, and doesn't leave much time for the "retired" dogs in the household.

So the breeder may offer the older "retired" dog for sale, just so they can live in a home and have attention lavished upon them by a family. Of course any breeder worth their salt is going to screen interested buyers and do right by the dog, first and foremost.

If breeders kept every dog they ever bred into old age, it could become overwhelming very quickly, and that's not good for the dogs or the breeder.

[x11]

OP back, i tracked this breeder down cos i could see this dog was a spectacular imo animal and i wanted to know it's lines and who bred it, got a whole lot of incoherent part answers which led me to believe the dog had been stolen. it wasn't, it was a father daughter test breeding. as said originally this breeder tests potential breeding stock in two ways;

1. to see if they can actually breed
2. to bring any recessive traits to the surface to inform where the basic program/plan is at.

the breeder is a german guy originally who has had a lifetime of breeding qaulity healthy dogs. over 60% of his dogs are in gov agencies consistently over decades (i think that is good rate?). the majority of the test litters (which occur rarely) go straight to gov agencies and have the same care, training and wash out rate as the regular bred dogs. the gov agencies do not ask for papers from the test litters or the regular litters. they just put all the dogs thru the same program and treat them the same. what happens to the wash outs i don't know and did not ask.


to the people that own healthy dogs it appears you can thank a breeder has done these practices for you no matter how cruel or unethical you think it is it has improved the health of the breed. hopefully a blood test and analysis will make it unecessary in the future.

like most things folks want to stay in their shell and think everything is just pretty flowers and candy on a stick. when you pay for a healthy puppy you are paying for someone else to the dirty work you find so distasteful at least somewhere in the chain of supply which includes some brutal training and hard lifes for so many dogs to get the top tier dogs you get today. all just my opinion.

as for dogs being commodities, you have to be kidding, the gsd is the most commodified dog there is!!! right up to the point that so many are as equally expensive and equally useless symbols of status and fashion.

expereinced breeders please confirm this fact: the most famous of proven working dogs will be most likely never die in the arms of their primary handler or breeder, they will be campained and sold to the highest bidder anywhere in the world over and over. what of the titled import market - commodities? dogs transferred from breeder, to trainer to broker to handler.....if you have a problem with that (i am actually on yr side) then you must scream everytime you leave yr house.

[shepherdmom]

Originally Posted by Freestep

I guess I look at it differently.

For a breeder who is dedicated to the breed as a whole, they may be able to do more good for the breed by training and trialing as many dogs as they can, without neglecting anyone else.

I guess we do look at it differently. I just know that when I look into my 10 year old Buddy's eyes cloudy with age, that nothing besides death will ever separate me from him. I have had 10 years of loyalty and love and I would not give it up anything or anyone. Even my 7 year old Tasha who we just rescued a few months back. She is mine now and I will do everything I can to make sure she is safe and loved for the rest of her life. I guess those people willing to sell an old dog because they have to show/breed/train a new one will never understand that feeling, and what a terrible disservice that is, not only to the breed but to themselves as well.

[GSDElsa]

Originally Posted by x11

expereinced breeders please confirm this fact: the most famous of proven working dogs will be most likely never die in the arms of their primary handler or breeder, they will be campained and sold to the highest bidder anywhere in the world over and over. what of the titled import market - commodities? dogs transferred from breeder, to trainer to broker to handler.....if you have a problem with that (i am actually on yr side) then you must scream everytime you leave yr house.

I don't really agree with this. Yes, a lot of people do this, but a lot of people who are competing at top levels keep their "famous" dogs forever as well.

[GSDElsa]

I've read this thread, but I think if you're going to do a controversial breeding, own it and put your name on it (Tiekerhook comes to mind).

[selzer]

I guess I look at it this way, there is no way I would give any dog to someone I did not think would give them a good home.

I will say that again, no dog from 8 weeks old to fully mature is going to go with anyone I do not fully believe will give them a good home and a good life.

My keeping my retired bitches isn't doing them any favors. I am keeping them because I am too selfish to place them where they will be loved on by a family for the rest of their lives. There is nothing heroic in that. Yes, I do love them, and they know only me, and as far as any dog is capable of it, they love me. But if I were to place them with someone else, they would learn the new people and love them too.

Every dog I keep means that all of my dogs get a little bit less. The puppies and young bitches require more, they will get more, the older ones require less, and yes, they could have a much better existence in the eyes of people here being in a home with one other dog, or no other dogs, and maybe more people.

The same is true if you do a test breeding and the puppies come out with stripes. Ooops, we have the striped gene going on here, Let's neuter this boy and girl and find them awesome homes. That way those dogs I have, the dogs I bring in or keep from other litters to replace these dogs in my program, will have that much more of me, while the dogs that throw striped puppies will have an awesome life with people who love only them. It is a win-win solution for everyone.

And the striped puppies, there will always be people willing to take puppies that are rare, like blue or liver or brindle or panda, some like whites, blacks, sables, bi-colors, coats, and whether or not these are rare or off-color, or not, there is nothing wrong with them going to homes. But if you do not want to produce certain traits, and especially if those traits are out of standard, it makes sense to pull the dog from your program, and to sell the puppies. If they are out of standard, it may be best to alter the dogs before placing them, so they are not used by unscrupulous breeders who will breed them specifically for those traits, for as much as they can make out of them. As a breed guardian, that is really not hypocritical.

But if the test breeding produces less desirable traits, or health problems, well, the choices are to place the puppies in homes that will provide feedback and understand the purpose of the breeding and possible issues. I think that it is not necessarily unethical to do such a breeding, so that you know. Some genetics are cut and dried, some are not so, and sometimes we know what lines have what issues because of test breedings and what they produced.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

I guess we do look at it differently. I just know that when I look into my 10 year old Buddy's eyes cloudy with age, that nothing besides death will ever separate me from him. I have had 10 years of loyalty and love and I would not give it up anything or anyone.

But you are a pet owner, not a breeder with multiple dogs working toward a goal for the good of the breed as a whole. When you have, say, half a dozen dogs, there is only so much time in a day that you can give, and you still need to raise up-and-coming pups. Where did you get your dog? If he came from a good breeder, you can bet that breeder has had to make a lot of sacrifices to bring your dog, his littermates, and all the other puppies to good homes.

You want a breeder to be knowledgable, experienced, successful. To acheive that, the person must train, work, trial and prove a LOT of different dogs in their career, so that they learn how to work with many different types of temperaments, select the ones for breeding, and hopefully improve upon what they have with each breeding. To do this AND ensure that each dog, even the older ones, get sufficient love and attention, it either takes a lot of help from family, paid staff, or finding loving homes for those that are not being actively bred or campaigned.

I guess those people willing to sell an old dog because they have to show/breed/train a new one will never understand that feeling, and what a terrible disservice that is, not only to the breed but to themselves as well.

I have to disagree that breeders don't know and understand the feeling. Believe me, they do what they do for the best interest of the dog, and will sometimes shed tears when an older dog goes to a new home. It's not like the dogs are inanimate products, they are living, breathing creatures, and their breeders want the best for them, while continuing to move forward with their breeding program.

How is it a disservice to the breed to give older dogs a "retirement" home?