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Old 11-04-2012, 08:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Breeding for appearance questions

This is sort of a spin off from my recent thread "what kind of dog is that?". I've had a few conversations about how you can have a purebred GSD with long hair and a sable coat. This generally comes from those people who swear Kaiser is mixed with "something".

For starters, I know the sable gene is dominant but I'm not sure about coat length. In Kaiser's case, I think he has a medium length stock coat (he still has an undercoat, although his fur is much less coarse than the "standard" calls for). I admit, until I saw Falon's Kastle, I had never seen another longer haired sable in the US. So for my personal knowledge, how does this work?

For example, if Kaiser was to be bred to a very dark stock coat sable, how would the puppies (theoretically) look? What if the female was a longer coat?

What would the puppies look like if Kaiser was bred to a standard b&t or r&b?

And what about a pure black or pure white?

Obviously none of these breedings will ever occur as I have absolutely no plans on breeding Kaiser and NOBODY should EVER breed for just appearance. I'm just trying to understand the genetics of it, as best I can. I know the basics of genetics in that both parents have to have the recessive gene in order to produce puppies with that recessive trait...and I know that a dominant gene will trump a recessive gene. But beyond that...

And as an aside, I'm having trouble finding dogs with Belgium roots online. Does anyone have any examples you could show me of both short and longer coated belgian lines?
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:57 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Frankenhaus German Shepherds - Color Genetics
Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements

Regarding LC:
If your dog has two copies of the LC allele, your dog is a long coat. He could be a shorter long coat, but he is still a LC. Stock coat is dominant to LC. Speaking from the WGSL viewpoint, most of our dogs (rough guess 90%) that are stock coat will carry the LC recessive. Meaning that two normal stock coats can still product a LC if the recessive comes out. If you breed a LC to a stock coat, you can still have stock coats coming out, but at a lower rate.
Forgive my messy punnett squares!



Coat Variation in the Domestic Dog Is Governed by Variants in Three Genes
Paper on the genetics of coat variation. Good read.

Let me know if you have more questions.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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you are amazing!!!! I haven't read the links yet but I will as soon as I leave this response
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:08 AM   #4 (permalink)
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On the same vein:
What happens if you breed a dog that does NOT carry coat to a normal stock coat that is a carrier:


Wiva's sire Xenox is one of the few WGSL studs around that does not carry coat. He has not been tested, but has never produced a coat after quite a few breedings. See how you can completely mask coat if you breed to a dog that carries two dominant stock coat copies? However, if you kept progeny (like I did with Wiva), you could still produce coats a generation down. I had Wiva tested for coat length and she came back as a LC carrier. So she was the 50% that carries coat out of the breeding.

The advantage is that your litter will have no LC, which is desirable for people because short coats can be shown, bred and command a higher price. (Yes LC can be shown, but )
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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ok...so Kaiser (sable) with a black dog would produce sables since solid black is the most recessive.

Kaiser with another sable would produce sables.

Kaiser with a r&b or b&t would...produce sables because sable is dominant over r&b and b&t. But if Kaiser has a gene (allele?) for, say, b&t, then he could also produce those?

Kaiser with a white would...produce sables unless he has the gene for white? I'm a little confused on this one.

So it seems, a sable can produce ANY of the other colors (r&b/b&t, bi-color, black) but the other colors can't produce a sable unless mated to a sable.

I'll have to re-read that last article...I felt extremely intelligent while reading it, then realized I was reading myself into circles, lol.

Ref: the long coat though...VERY interesting! So Kaiser IS considered a long coat then, as far as genetics goes? And because a LC is recessive, he MUST be paired with a female who is known to have at least one copy of the gene.

Whew...I'm not sure if this makes me want to go back to school or run far, far away from it ;-p I actually studied zoology, years ago though...and genetics always interested me but often left me a little confused.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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this is so interesting!!! Genetics in school were never so, I suppose because I didn't have my own dog to use as an example! lol
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:22 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I have a long hair dark sable , and his sire was a long coat solid black . Here is the pedigree Carmspack Sumo
Carmspack Sumo -- his sister Journey is a "normal" coat dark sable owned by Laurel , recently got BH with high standing - genetic obedience on both of them and strong committment to fight , rock solid, sociable dogs , with the health and constitution of mountain goats
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:27 AM   #8 (permalink)
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We cannot say for sure with Kaiser because we do not know what he carries in addition to sable. It makes a big difference on what he could produce depending on the female and what she carries also. But we don't know what Kaiser carries or what the potential female would carry so you could only do "if then" cases right now. It does not matter what he is phenotypically (on the outside), we will have to see what he carries also.

In terms of LC, yes Kaiser is a LC. What do you mean he MUST be bred to a LC carrier? It depends on what you wish to produce. If you want LC out of that breeding, you should breed to a LC carrier or if you really just want to produce LC only, he must be bred to another LC. This is what people do with the blacks. If you want a litter of all black, you must breed two blacks together.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Oops, I forgot to finish my thought I was saying that if LC was the goal, then he must be paired with a female who has at least one copy.

I am going all off theory here. For all I know Kaiser could produce pandas! haha...ok maybe not. But yes, its all a crapshoot at this point. Theoretically though its very interesting!
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Here are all the possibilities in terms of coat for Kaiser:
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