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Old 11-04-2012, 11:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Additional note: all these percentages are just probabilities. Remember that EACH puppy is a completely new roll of the dice so theoretically, you could produce ALL long coats out of a Kaiser x Stock coat that carries coat or you could produce no coats. This is why some of these litters will drive you nuts because although highly anticipated, you might end up producing all long coats out of two normal parents and you don't have anything to keep.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:16 AM   #12 (permalink)
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hmm...so, we know that Kaiser DOES carry the LC and sable gene. But we don't know what else he carries. So aside from being able to theoretically produce b&t, bi-colors, and blacks of both short and long coats (depending on the female), what is it that he can NOT produce? White? Dogs with diluted colors? (or is his light tan considered a diluted red?)

Hmm, and now that I think about it, how does structure work? Kaiser has more of his mother's face (narrow muzzle), so can he only produce puppies with narrow faces? Can heavier boned progeny with more masculine heads be produced if Kaiser is paired with a female with those traits? On the same note, if he is mated to a female with a more sloped topline, will that "even out" the fact that Kaiser's is more straight? Or are the genetics similiar to that with coat characteristics (in that you have dominant and recessive traits). Is body structure even considered dominant or recessive?
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:25 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Conformation is a tricky mistress. If it was as simple as matching two dogs with agreeable traits and producing progeny that resemble their parents, breeders would have a lot more success. The problem with traits like structure, appearance, temperament and so on is that they are polygenic traits. Traits that are influenced and mitigated by multiple genes and factors. They are too plentiful to reliably produce 100% accurate results. This is when things like linebreeding and inbreeding come into play. The closer the genes, the more reliably you can predict what you will produce. You will have to look deeper than just sire and dam. I have heard more than one old school breeder say that progeny tend to reflect the grandparents more so than the parents. Breeders will try to do what you are saying. Try to improve what your dog lacks. But again, it is NOT a guarantee. You could end up producing a litter with all narrow faces and level topline. That is also why you have "pet" pups and the ones the breeder keeps. Out of each litter, you will have pups that will suit your purpose better than others because they are all just genetic rolls of the dice. You might luck out with a superb litter or you could get a litter with a host of genetic problems. This is why I really like to keep track of littermates, their health and accomplishments. They are a first hand view of what happens when your dog's genetics combine in the same way and what they could produce.

Say you produced a really nice dog and you keep her back for yourself. But then a year later, puppy buyers of your dog's littermates come back and tell you that their pups have bad hips. That gives you an insight into what your dog can potentially carry. If it's a fluke, that's one thing. But what if the entire litter suffers from a genetic issue? Be it temperament, nerve strength, drive, working ability, aggression, hips/elbows, DM or whatever you are tracking, you must get the WHOLE story before even attempting anything because the outside is one very small piece of the puzzle. This is why I laugh when we get a newbie that swears that their dog should be bred because it is "sweet, everyone tells me he's pretty and he is the best dog I had". That is just the very tip of the iceberg. They have NO idea what they are working with because the genetics and genotype is a giant crucial part of breeding that so many blatantly disregard or do not have enough knowledge to be tampering with.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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wow so interesting. I have so much respect for the REAL breeders out there, and I know they are constantly evolving and learning, even after all the years of experience!
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Halo is a LC sable too. Her parents were both stock coats - her dam is sable and her sire is solid black. There were blacks and sables in the litter, and at least one other LC.

I don't know know anything about color or conformation genetics, but two stock coats without the LC gene will produce all stock coats, and two stock coats where only one of them carries the LC gene will also produce all stock coats. In order for a pairing to have any LC puppies, both of them must carry the recessive LC gene. I believe there's an approximately 25% chance that there will be some LCs in the litter, but as gbchottu pointed out, that's not an absolute.
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