Health clearances

[Vandal]

That's certainly a big part of what I'm saying. Just because someone tests for something doesn't make the person responsible or knowledgeable about the breed. And just because someone doesn't test for something--based on their knowledge of the breed and the bloodlines--doesn't make that person irresponsible.

Let's focus on the problems that do exist and work on them instead of tilting at windmills so we look reputable. Let's be reputable instead.

In this day and age, where just about everything is used as a marketng tool, trying to explain this fact to people is just about impossible. Just had this conversation this morning with someone interested in a pup.
I will add this as well. There is so much more to GSD breeding than health and although it should certainly be a big consideration, it is not the ONLY one.

[robinhuerta]

Christine,
Another reason that I asked is because I have had a dog with TV....she is 8 1/2 and honestly never presented any problem of any sort.
She was xrayed at 3 1/2 (I think?).....OFA Good w/TV.
When I received the results (I had never seen TV mentioned before on any OFA cert)...I specifically asked both Ortho Vets......they responded that it was no real problem. *Thats why I asked you*......Thank you for responding!

[BlackthornGSD]

Originally Posted by robinhuerta

Christine,
Another reason that I asked is because I have had a dog with TV....she is 8 1/2 and honestly never presented any problem of any sort.
She was xrayed at 3 1/2 (I think?).....OFA Good w/TV.
When I received the results (I had never seen TV mentioned before on any OFA cert)...I specifically asked both Ortho Vets......they responded that it was no real problem. *Thats why I asked you*......Thank you for responding!

I understand that not all TVs even involve the same vertebra. Sounds like she got one of the "good" ones that is causing no/few problems for her--hope it stays that way. I suspect that many dogs don't have a problem with it, which would be why OFA doesn't worry too much about it.

One of the two TV cases I know of was a son of Olko vh Antverpa--that dog also tested as a carrier (not at risk) of the DM gene. The other TV dog was a Nessel vh Antverpa son. Recently heard from someone else that their Nessel grand-son also tested as a carrier of the DM gene. I have wondered if the TV genes and the DM genes aren't both becoming more common because they might be present in some of the very popular stud dogs who are descended from Robby Glockeneck and/or the G litter Blitsaerd. (Not saying that TV and DM are related, just that the 2 genes are becoming more common in some of the working lines and maybe these dogs are implicated in that.)

[elisabeth_00117]

I understand what you are saying, and my breeder feels the same way as you do (and others).

I guess I am looking at it from a newbie perspective, which I am... so... I have to learn from somewhere!

To me, if I can afford the test, want to ensure that my dog is healthy (and yes, like I previously mentioned there is way more to breeding than just physical health) then why not? Yes, I want to learn about what affects the breed (and am learning).

I am not the person responsible for the breeding, although I do believe I will have some say in the matter since Zefra is living with me (and will continue too) and because I have a passion for this breed and what the new generation is to become.

I don't want to LOOK reputable, I want to BE reputable.. even if *I* do not breed again myself. I just want *my* dog to be a good producer and ensure that her off spring are the cream of the crop so to speak...

[BlackthornGSD]

Elisabeth, my comments weren't directed at you, and I'm sorry if they came off that way. I'm responding in part to the thread over on PDB, which isn't fair to you--my apologies for ranting in your thread.

It's just been on my mind--I've been trying to figure out why the discussion is bothering me. Because I really do think health testing is important.

But I think it comes back to when I am asked if I do CERF, my response is going to be "no, because I think it is of limited usefulness in a GSD because the only common eye problem in the breed is visible to anyone who looks and CERF is a single-point-in-time certification that gives no information as to the likelihood of a dog passing on the problem." And instead of being seen as an informed and responsible answer, it's seen as dubious and possibly irresponsible.

So maybe this is just my problem and I need to get over it.

But mostly, I think it's that it's peer pressuring breeders to enrich the testing companies instead of to breed responsibly.

[Vandal]

Robin,
I had that show up in a dog years ago and I was told the same thing you were. The dog never had any issues with it. However, I think the advice more recently is not to breed that dog to another dog with TV.

Christine,
I agree with your last sentence and I am also disturbed by the inability of people to understand just how complex GSD breeding is. I will go further in saying that, in the future, breeders will be cornered by all these tests. I predict laws pushed by AR fanatics that will take the breeding decisions out of the breeder's hands. Those little disclaimers on the OFA site about breeder's making choices are never read by the ignorant masses.

The road to **** is paved with good intentions and we are being herded toward that onramp.

[Liesje]

I don't think TV itself is horrible and I personally wouldn't disqualify and otherwise nice breeding dog b/c of TV (as long as the mate did not have TV). The problem my dog has is not necessarily the TV but the APA - Asymmetrical Pelvic Attachment. He has extra vertebrae (whatever the plural is) and where they normally attach (the sacro-illiac I think it is?) is really messed up. His entire pelvic structure is asymmetrical. Because of how it tried to attach, he has knobs and bone spurs that shouldn't be there. This is what causes the popping sound when he walks (the vet believes it's a ligament rubbing one of these bone spurs). He's walked with a limp since he was 6 months and everyone told me it was just panno but I always *felt* there was something not right about him. He also shows a general weakness in the rear, especially on the right side (the side that pops). For example he sometimes drags his rear feet, and if you do that DM test where you flip his foot under, he often won't automatically right it. Despite being in great condition, good size, not overly angulated, and fairly well balanced, in any venue he's always been critiqued as weak in the rear or not using his rear (he doesn't move well in conformation, doesn't collect well in agility, doesn't jump correctly in dock diving, often misses that rear right foot on the box in flyball...). According to the vet (I took him to the ortho vet, showed him three sets of x-rays of the hips and spine), there's really nothing we can do. Obviously it cannot be corrected and since it's not a joint it would not respond to common treatments like joint supplements (though I use these anyway). He's at high risk for developing more serious and painful problems like CE (cauda equina sp?). The vet's advice is to not breed him, let him work and train in whatever he likes as hard and as long as he likes, and when he starts showing serious pain to put him down. There are just so many "what ifs" because no dog with this condition is the same, and for an otherwise healthy, active dog that enjoys working, why banish him to crate rest and pacing in the yard over a "what if" that might get a few more pain free years? He could live to be 15 and be no worse off than he is today, or he could break his back tomorrow. Anyway, that's been my experience with TV. It's sort of like HD - anything from borderline (don't do much of anything) to severe.

[BlackthornGSD]

Originally Posted by Liesje

. The vet's advice is to not breed him, let him work and train in whatever he likes as hard and as long as he likes, and when he starts showing serious pain to put him down. There are just so many "what ifs" because no dog with this condition is the same, and for an otherwise healthy, active dog that enjoys working, why banish him to crate rest and pacing in the yard over a "what if" that might get a few more pain free years? He could live to be 15 and be no worse off than he is today, or he could break his back tomorrow. Anyway, that's been my experience with TV. It's sort of like HD - anything from borderline (don't do much of anything) to severe.

You might try accupuncture--my friends with the TV dog who began having problems at a young age feel that it has made a significant difference in his comfort.

[Liesje]

I've thought about it but right now his symptoms are more neurological in nature, not a pain response. I asked the vet about this and several other things and he said it wouldn't hurt but probably would not help in this case so I decided to save my $$$.

[VonKromeHaus]

I did OFA Hips/Elbows and recently Patellas(cause my vet threw it for free and I just paid the OFA fee). I also did the DM. I may or may not do another test on him. I do not plan on breeding him again, so really there is no reason and his lines according to the breeder and a breeder friend, don't tend to carry anything else.

On my little APBT who will be spayed, I will be doing Hips, Elbows, Patellas, Ataxia, CERF, Cardiac and Thyroid. Just because I plan on working her hard and the breed is more prone to certain health problems and she doesn't come from the greatest background. She was a rescue.