Ownership demands affecting the breed?

[Falkosmom]

Originally Posted by robinhuerta

I did have a puppy buyer write me a letter, expressing their thoughts and opinions on "our" future breeding program and goals.....
This person bought a female puppy from us about 3 yrs ago. Nice female, not too "driven"...but had normal drives. Buyer lived on 10 acres, a pond, had chickens and a couple of goats....
Took puppy home at 10 weeks old. At 4 mos old.....called us....."Puppy chasing chickens."....*gave advice*. At 5mos old called us....."Puppy LOVES to swim in pond, retrieving objects THEY throw in....how to STOP it?!"....*gave advice*.
At 8mos old...called us....."Puppy chasing deer...how to stop it?".....*gave advice*.
Received a letter in the mail (dog would have been almost 2yrs old.)....saying that their dog was hit by a car, and died. He expressed his concern that "our breeding program" produced dogs with too much temperament and drives......that we should "re-think" our program, because our dogs were too much for the average companion home & pet life.
I almost choked.....this owner had 10 acres, a pond, free ranging chickens & goats.....and a *free ranging* puppy, that they NEVER put a leash on or corrected from any unwanted behavior.(no matter how much advice we gave)......YET....it is *our* fault for breeding a puppy with correct temperament and drives for the breed...? I felt so saddened by the response.....but it is proving to be what many owners actually want.....LESS DOG.
*Instead of breeders, dumbing down the breed....how about potential owners & enthusiasts, ....educating UP, for the breed...?

Sorry about your puppy! How sad!

But I do agree with you on people educating up. You see it over and over where people buy a GSD and are disappointed because they got what they paid for, a bred to the standard GSD. Problem is they did not really want a GSD.

[GrammaD]

Originally Posted by robinhuerta

I did have a puppy buyer write me a letter, expressing their thoughts and opinions on "our" future breeding program and goals.....
This person bought a female puppy from us about 3 yrs ago. Nice female, not too "driven"...but had normal drives. Buyer lived on 10 acres, a pond, had chickens and a couple of goats....
Took puppy home at 10 weeks old. At 4 mos old.....called us....."Puppy chasing chickens."....*gave advice*. At 5mos old called us....."Puppy LOVES to swim in pond, retrieving objects THEY throw in....how to STOP it?!"....*gave advice*.
At 8mos old...called us....."Puppy chasing deer...how to stop it?".....*gave advice*.
Received a letter in the mail (dog would have been almost 2yrs old.)....saying that their dog was hit by a car, and died. He expressed his concern that "our breeding program" produced dogs with too much temperament and drives......that we should "re-think" our program, because our dogs were too much for the average companion home & pet life.
I almost choked.....this owner had 10 acres, a pond, free ranging chickens & goats.....and a *free ranging* puppy, that they NEVER put a leash on or corrected from any unwanted behavior.(no matter how much advice we gave)......YET....it is *our* fault for breeding a puppy with correct temperament and drives for the breed...? I felt so saddened by the response.....but it is proving to be what many owners actually want.....LESS DOG.
*Instead of breeders, dumbing down the breed....how about potential owners & enthusiasts, ....educating UP, for the breed...?

Oh heck, my lab would do all of that given the opportunity (she does get to do the water retrieving weekly) that is just normal dog behavior and the aspects of it that one doesn't like must be prevented and/or trained away from.

That was just a bad owner for any dog and I am so sorry you lost one of your beautiful pups to them

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by BR870

Why? That "gameness" makes them very good catch dogs. The pitbull is probably the most common hog hunting dog in the US. And feral hog populations are only getting worse...

Yes, but you can't have catch dogs attacking each other instead of the hog. There are other breeds used as catch dogs that are bred to work in a pack, and therefore must NOT be DA. The type of gameness needed to catch a hog is different from the gameness needed in dogfighting.

I didn't mean to imply that Pit Bulls have no use. They are certainly multi-talented animals that can be trained to do many different things. It's just that one aspect of their temperament--DA--no longer has any place in society.

Most people would argue that there is even less room in society for human aggressive dogs in society. Yet here we sit on a German Shepherd Dog forum, and the GSD if "well bred" should have appropriate human aggression.

Yes, but there is actually a use for HA... think police work, PP, guard work, military, etc. It's part of the GSD's makeup and must be controlled by a responsible and diligent handler. Those that do not want HA in their dogs should look into a different breed.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by Whiteshepherds

The GSD was originally developed as a herding dog. The breed's job changed because the need for herding dogs declined. Regardless of what they became after that point, that's what they were originally bred for.

Actually the GSD was created FROM herding dogs, but they were not created exclusively FOR herding. The GSD was supposed to be a versatile dog used for law enforcement, military, guide dogs for the blind, etc. Max wanted a WORKING dog, but not necessarily a HERDING dog. Some of the instincts and drives that make a good herding dog lend themselves well to other venues.

Tina Barber did what many breeders don't have the guts to do. Rather than breed against the standard and try to convince people that it was okay, she walked away from the AKC and the breed. Dumbing down the GSD as you call it would be up for debate, but it's a moot point. The Shiloh Shepherd isn't a GSD, it only has certain similar traits. This woman didn't hurt the GSD breed on any level.

Exactly--that's what I'm saying; the Shiloh and other GSD offshoots were created to give the public a softer, calmer dog that LOOKS like a GSD, but doesn't have the same drive and energy level. I for one am glad that breeders have done that, rather than lobby to dumb down the GSD as a whole.

[robinhuerta]

I also don't believe that the Shilohs are a "dumbed down" version of the GSD....
I think they are a breed separate of their own...with their own standards including temperament and characteristics.
There are many breeds created that "resemble" others in physical appearance.

[bocron]

Originally Posted by marshies

On the realistic side though, if people keep returning dogs to breeders because they are too much for them, then breeders will change what they are breeding for or face a very restricted customer base.

Or they will learn to screen buyers more effectively. With my first litter of Beaucerons, I had a woman contact me about getting a pup. She was actually French and was familiar with the breed (at least more than the average person I spoke with at the time). Being a rare breed, we regularly were selling pups to people we never actually met in person. Anyway, she bought the pup and made the 9+ hour drive here to get the puppy. When we met them, my husband and I didn't really love them, but couldn't really find a real reason to dislike them. Anyway, I met them about 6 months later at a dog event. By then I could tell the now 8 month old pup was being raised horribly. At this event I also had the pleasure of meeting the couple's pre-teen daughter who was an absolute nightmare. Needless to say I got the dog back the following year. I did reevaluate my process, though, not the dogs I was breeding.

[JakodaCD OA]

I also dont want to see the breed I love 'dumbed" down.

I do think there are people out there breeding for what Joe Public wants, because hey it's money!

I also think alot of Joe Public get these dogs because of looks alone and 'status'. (I got me a big ole mean gsd mentality)

I am familiar with alot of really great breeders and would hate to see them stop producing the type of dog I love because of the "market".

I don't want a couch potatoe, I don't want a whacko, I want a nicely versatile balanced dog that I can choose to do whatever it is I want to do , thankfully the majority of german shepherds I've had and have, are just that.

[Freestep]

Originally Posted by robinhuerta

I also don't believe that the Shilohs are a "dumbed down" version of the GSD....

Really? I admit I haven't read the Shiloh standard, but everything I've heard (and the little I've seen) about them leads me to believe they are bigger, softer, lazier dog that is meant to resemble a large GSD. Aren't they a mix of GSD and a couple other breeds?

[robinhuerta]

Yes Freestep....the original Shilohs were bred from GSDs....
But the breed originator did wish to create a "version" of the GSD....she wanted to breed an entirely different breed that "resembled" a GSD somewhat in looks, but had a different temperament & different characteristics.
So actually...they are not "dumb downed" versions of the GSD breed......they are a breed of itself.

[JanaeUlva]

Originally Posted by JakodaCD OA

I also dont want to see the breed I love 'dumbed" down.

I do think there are people out there breeding for what Joe Public wants, because hey it's money!

I also think alot of Joe Public get these dogs because of looks alone and 'status'. (I got me a big ole mean gsd mentality)

I am familiar with alot of really great breeders and would hate to see them stop producing the type of dog I love because of the "market".

I don't want a couch potatoe, I don't want a whacko, I want a nicely versatile balanced dog that I can choose to do whatever it is I want to do , thankfully the majority of german shepherds I've had and have, are just that.

Couldn't have said this any better! Totally agree.