German Shepherd Breeders Today

[cliffson1]

The German Shepherd dog has a long history and legacy of being a versatile utility dog. Many feel that the breed today is fragmented and separated into different lines or divisions.
I assert that the responsible breeders of today often donot have the zest and zeal for the all around knowledge of the versatility of the breed. The breed is very versatile in type, temperament and performance. This has allowed the breed to be the attraction to family, service, and vocation. To me the essence of the breed, what makes a German Shepherd different than any other breed is this versatility.
I see the different venues producing many breeders that are one-legged stools. Very knowledgable about what they perform in but extremely deficient in the other 80% of what this breed can do. Still, yet I see responsible breeders that have no sense of history or legacy, and in some cases very little knowledge about the history of their own dogs.
My question is should a breeder of a versatile dog be knowledgable about most of the aspects of which this dog is used? Would this help to keep breeding practices centered so to speak? Can you really be a responsible breeder only breeding for one aspect of the dog's heritage?
Is it possible that the best all around dog no longer has all around breeders?????

[4TheDawgies]

Cliffson what a great topic!

I am a firm believer that we still have a utilitarian dog in some lines with some breeders. Some breeders may not know what they have, but with the right eyes looking others can. Not enough credit is given to these all around breeders, including from themselves.

This breed is loosing its spark generation after generation and its those breeders giving it a glimmer of hope.

Seeing as most dog breeding ideas, practices, and plans are based on Victorian times, you would think we have it easy. Look at all of this DNA testing and health testing. We take it for granted. Even though we ate fighting natures hard grip, we could still have a better handle on these health issues plagued in our breed.

If someone took the time to do a scientific study on drives and temperament versus nurture we could learn a lot and get somewhere with this.

People focus too hard on the big picture of things. I have no use for a SchH3 if its fake, or a VA that was bought. Especially if those dogs in reality bring nothing to the breed.

What do these people faking x rays, paying for accomplishments on their dogs and not learning anything about their dogs think they are doing to the breed?

I think understanding the good, bad, ugly, and pretty of this breed is important for ALL GSD breeders. Take the time to learn what the breed was, is, and needs to be. How can you breed for better if you don't know that.

A breeders dogs may be a great accet(sp?) To the breed, but if the breeder can't figure out what it is they have to offer and what to bring it to, to improve then what good is it?

I don't think you can be a responsible breeder if you have tunnel vision about your goals in this breed. I can understand time constraints that hold you personally back from multiple venues. But knowing what it takes to be a utilitarian dog and continuing to breed towards that is what the breed needs.

If you are a German Shepherd breeder and you are not doing those things, then you are not fulfilling all of your responsibilities as a GSD breeder.
JMO

[sit,stay]

Yes, a good, knowledgeable breeder should be aware of all aspects of the breed's ability. Any given litter is going to have a range of temperaments, drives and abilities. If a breeder is so focused on their own niche, they will not have the knowledge required to place puppies that don't fit that narrowly defined area of interest.

I very much believe that part of the education process for breeders should be a decent understanding of everything this breed is capable of. It shouldn't matter if your particular interests as a breeder don't include these other activities. Because the breed is so utilitarian, chances are you will find puppies more suited to some other activity in your litters (eventually). That is the way it should be. So do right by the breed as a whole and place those puppies where they can shine the best.

Also, if a breeder has a solid idea of what the breed is capable of, what SHOULD be present in a dog, they will also have a better idea of what SHOULDN'T be present in a dog.
Sheilah

[GSDElsa]

Tunnel vision--I know about that, right?

I think that there are breeders out there who like what they like. Focus on what they like, but are still able to produce a good all-around dog. Sometimes it is hard to pull the blinders off, but they can sometimes be coerced into it.

I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having something specific that you like or focus on, as long as it doesn't become a crutch for losing out on other important traits. Everyone has something they are partial too. But I think that what makes a good breeder, trainer, etc of GSD's is the ability to acknowledge when your flavor needs a little spice.

I think there are a lot of people breeding today that shouldn't be because they don't have the knowledge. But I still think there are a lot of breeders out there producing good dogs. Even if their concentration is a specific thing--SchH for instance....I like to see that those puppies are able to go into various venues. Even if the breeder is only interested in sport on the surface, they are still able to produce SAR dogs, or police dogs, or tracking dogs, or herding dogs, or dogs who are simply great family pets because deep down they recognize what the breed should still be.

[NarysDad]

Yes this is a very good topic Cliff.

What I have seen in the short 12 years of breeding dogs is that I have seen breeders focus on only a few factors whether it is Hips, Sport dogs, Titles, ect. I see very few that look at the total dog when bring 2 together to breed. I have to admit that I am still learning and when I don't know I go to those who are more knowledgeable than I to get my answers and it isn't just what one has to say, but I reflect on the total picture of comments. IMO I see a lot of breeders today see a hot dog come to the states from overseas and a bunch line up to breed to him without first factoring in what this male will bring while matching up to the female being bred. How many do you see that breed to these famous dogs litter- mates? We have so many that are just focused on titled dogs only where the litter mate may carry the same genetics, but because he/she doesn't have titles they walk away from this dog. Then we have some that want to only breed dogs with good or excellent hips without factoring in that these dogs may not produce such in their puppies. Rather than knowing the genetics behind a dog that may have fair hip ratings I see them dis-include them from the gene pool. Before you know it we will loose all the fine qualities this breed carries by using these practices Or that to try to improve on this line as many in the past history of the breed did by bring this dog to a improver of such to help strengthen these line to further increase the gene pool. I see others breeding only for sport dogs, looking to make smaller faster dogs that will excel only in sport and they forget about dogs in the past that had great structure although not a quick as the ones now a days are.

I chose the Czech lines due to the like of the heads, bone, and strength that they produced. I haven't tried to improve their abilities to do sport but tried to preserve what they once were. Not every breeding is guaranteed to be better than the next as we all know that breeding isn't a science and there are breeding that don't turn out the way we think they should. Yes there are members here that think I shouldn't be breeding dogs or that I have a lot to learn. I would be the first to admit that there is always something one can learn and this is why I come to boards like this one and surround myself with others that are more knowledgeable when it comes to lines that I don't know about

IMO I think that us breeders shouldn't be afraid to share knowledge about our dogs whether good or bad and stop being fearful of what others say about these dogs we own as this will only help to improve on the breed we all love so much

[Whiteshepherds]

Can you explain what you mean by versatility?

I always thought versatility meant that every GSD should be born possessing the same natural instincts, (to herd, to guard etc.) and that it's the different levels of drive and the dogs temperament that determines what it will actually be able to do well as an adult. So the strengths a bloodline has come in varying degrees, but none should be so strong as to interfer or wipe out other traits. Right or wrong?

I think a breeder that's produced a wide array of dogs, K-9's, SAR, tracking, sport and companion dogs etc., understands the versatility of the breed and I think these are the best breeders. On the other hand, a breeder who produces nothing but personal protection dogs might understand that the breed is versatile but chooses to hone in on certain qualities. Is that bad? A breeder producing companion dogs might have a great grasp on the breed but simply decides to not title their dogs. How do we know which breeder knows more than the other except for obvious things? How do you know if a breeder understands what the breed should be?

It's all pretty confusing.

[carmspack]

breeding has turned into a commercial venture .
Once again it is not just this breed it is a global problem in every breed . When breeding marches to the drum of the buying public then things go haywire and to extremes . When substandard "product" , knock-offs, and using Ralph Nader's phrase bringing the auto industry to task "planned obsolensence" are accepted as desirable and the norm how do you bring value to the real thing.
I deliberately drew attention to Poodles in another thread because they have the same problems as GSD . Originally a german water dog to retrieve fallen game in swampy water , robust and healthy , terribly smart , and now? " Modern dogs are a poor copy of their sturdier ancestors, and many an animal that was once in the forefront of the chase has now been turned by the breeders into a wretched specimen which can hardly hold a sugared biscuit in its mouth without dropping it.
(Philip Warner, Historian.) " this quote taken from a breeder in France .
No drive no character no correct breed specific characteristics.
I think a breeder should be very well informed in a practical way , hands on experience , not copying promotional material . How many times do you see web sites with people who have owned GSD for a sum total of 5 years and they are "breeding for the ultimate- all round working dog as per von Stephanitz vision" when they have not had the experience of breeding a normal basic dog , have never worked a dog , have never delved into the complexity of the land race breeds von Stephanitz documented .
Cliff , one does it because it is right, the thing to do , because you have a passion . Really really hard to use for marketing .
Once again -- an outstanding book to read is "Bred for Perfection" by Margaret Derry , U of T .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[Jack's Dad]

It's about supply and demand. Also the public and what they want.

The only breeder near me sells 100lb. plus GSD's. Their advertisment is for old fashioned GSD's the way they were meant to be. They sell all year round and sometimes the pups are with them until 6 mos. old but eventually they lower the price and get rid of them. The usual price is $500 for limited reg. or $1000 if you intend to breed.

I hardly ever saw a sable pup in public but they seem to be getting popular right now. I have a sable pup but didn't get her for her color although I like it. The point is if sable becomes popular and creates a market then some will breed for color and forget about other characteristics.

I think soon we will see Toy or miniture GSD's. Then will come Germadoodles or Labragerms or some other designer dog.

All that is needed is a market like Labradoodles have now.

The people who buy them will love them and after awhile will believe their dogs do represent the breed.

[Jack's Dad]

I rest my case. A thread just came up for someone looking for Silver Sable Breeders.

[cliffson1]

@Whiteshepherds....a person who breeds correct GS from which some can be used for personal protection understand German Shepherd breeding....a person who breeds German Shepherds for Personal protection is as bad as the exclusiveshow/sport world. The breed was meant to be specialized...specialty is the anthesis of all around dog. Does that make sense????? And Chuck brings up a good point in reflecting how people pigeonhole themselves into only certain hip levels, title, color, etc. as a basis for their breeding selections. When you stay centered in versatility and utility, you take care of many health, structural, and temperament issues. For many today because of the lack of all around knowledge, they become fixated on artificial elements to measure the dog's worth. Carmen's example of poodles is going right over some of your heads, the GS is aimed in a very similar direction. Just listen to what some of the posters on this forum think the breed ought to be today. The poodle was a magnificent retreiving dog in the homeland years ago....today most people are shocked to know of this breeds working abilities. This has already started (for 40 years in America) with out breed. People breed for demand, most demand is pets, so people breed for pets. The utility and versatility go right out the door like it has for the poodle.
There are no shortcuts for breeders without paying consequences.