The line fine between in-breeding and line breeding?

[bocron]

So this is a general question, not just about GSDs. Mostly because in addition to the GSD, I love Lancashire Heelers. I have been on the search for a female to hopefully import as a foundation girl. The breed is very rare and is actually listed on the "vulnerable breeds list" in the UK. The UK breeders are very reluctant to send dogs to the USA, for some reason they think that all American breeders are puppy millers, sigh. So I'm having to look in Sweden, Finland, Norway and the like to find a pup. The breeders are all up in arms about "inbreeding" and caution strongly against it since the gene pool is so small. My problem is that if I don't at least linebreed 4-4, 4-5 or in that range I will NEVER find a female to breed with my male. Of course, every GSD in my house is linebred someway or another, most in that range, not anything closer IIRC. I don't see this as a huge issue, especially in the case of a breed that is nearing extinction!
So where is the point at which one becomes the other? Is there technically a point at which linebred is actually inbred? Just trying to learn a bit more here.

[Rerun]

I've always heard the old saying....when it goes right, they call it line breeding, when it goes wrong, they call it in-breeding.

[Konotashi]

Thank you for posting this, I've been curious myself.

[Andaka]

I believe that anything closer than 2-3 (or 3-2) is inbreeding.

[selzer]

I line bred Odessa's last litter 3-3 on Pakros. In that litter, which came early and did not survive, was a puppy with a deformed tail. Perhaps 3-3 is too close.

I think the Germans allow 2-3 breeding. There really is no difference between line breeding and in-breeding, except that inbreeding is closer relatives. It is all inbreeding. But beyond a certain level it makes less of a difference. Considering diversity, a 2-2 would mean only three grand sires instead of four, 3-3 would have 7 instead of 8, 4-4, 15 in stead of 16 so it makes sense that 4-4 would not nearly be a detrimental as 2-2. In any case, one should choose wisely on whom one line or inbreeds to.

[GSDElsa]

Nothing to add, but those are cute little buggers!

[AgileGSD]

Likely they are cautioning you against inbreeding because they are trying to maintain some genetic diversity within the breed. When you have a low number breed, it gets to where every litter counts if any of the puppies go on to be bred. Although to be honest, if the breed is really nearing extinction they are likely all fairly inbred at this point anyway.

[ninemaplefarm]

Hi, there! We consider inbreeding anything closer than 4 x4. So, a 4 x 4 breeding would be linebreeding.

I have found in my personal experience (with horses) that inbreeding can REALLY lock in potency. I had one inbred mare (2x3) that whoever I bred her too she consistently passed on her balance and type. Now, she was a train wreck..small, loss of vigor, loss of athleticism. However, when I outcrossed her all her kids were stunning and strong in all the areas she was weak. The important thing is that I outcrossed her but she was so inbred that she threw certain traits on a consistent basis.

Now, my mares that were not linebred or inbred were less consistent producers but good specimens themselves.

The thing with close inbreeding is that you will double up on strengths but also weaknesses. So, you better know what bad stuff is in the lines as it has a great chance of popping up!

I have no problem with inbreeding or linebreeding but you need to outcross the next time before you can bring the line back in. Linebreeding is much safer.

Sex balanced linebreeding is even better.......

I think you are way safe with a 4 x4 or 4x5 linebreeding! Good luck...cute dogs!! But, sheesh wouldn't a cardigan corgi save you a lot of work!! hehehe

[bocron]

Thanks all for the input. Sorry I haven't posted sooner, I'm having the worst time with my internet for some reason and can't get pages to load, etc.
Well I found a breeder in Sweden with a litter expected late winter. She will be sending me a pedigree which I will load into pedigree database.
As to Corgis, I like them, but find they are huge compared to the LH. Also, the temperament of the LH is pretty different to the corgi. I love Corgis, but you'd have to meet a LH to see why I love them.
Here's a video of my male last winter. We have a creek on our property and he has learned not to go in when all the big dogs are around. There is one area where a tree fell over the creek and he uses that to get to the other side, it drives the GSDs nuts and they all try to follow him on the log but of course they fall before getting halfway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8L-H5EFOCw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8L-H5EFOCw

[bocron]

And here's a video just 3 months later taken at the same spot. Sargeant is trying his best to keep up with Ron, the male GSD, and Uma, the GSD pup is trying out the creek for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=XLuz5Mkm9nk