Do genetics trump training?

[Jack's Dad]

For the purpose of this thread, leave out the most extreme dogs with bad nerves.

I'm interested in the ones that fall somwhere between extremes of bad nerves and extreme aggression.

Which is most likely to succeed. A dog with solid nerves and a mediocre trainer or a good trainer with a somewhat nervous dog.

Genetics vs training.

[Samba]

I think I have seen novice trainers do best with a good dog. They may not train all the behaviors to exacting points but with a good dog can get predictable performance.

A good trainer can also get far with a genetically challenged dog, depending on where they are exhibiting and the conditions. But, at any given time the dog can experience something that tasks it genetic ability to cope and the dog will
be revealed.

Just my thinking on it.

[Chris Wild]

Succeed in what? It sounds like a training/competition question, but you put it in the breeding section......

[Vinnie]

I'm incline to agree with Samba.
I've seen both and in my opinion;
The dog with the novice trainer may show errors on the novice's training side of things. He may not sit perfectly straight or something like that. While the nervous dog with a good trainer can't help but to eventually show a bit of his own nerve. Even if it is ever so slight.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

Succeed in what? It sounds like a training/competition question, but you put it in the breeding section......

Yeah succeed at what? Day to day I'll take the sound dog with the novice handler any time. As far as actual competition, well a great handler with a pooper of a dog can still take the podium.

I don't think genetics vs. training is mutually exclusive or should be. You shouldn't just rely on one or the other. They should complement each other. I try to get dogs, genetically, that I believe will fit the style of training and competition I'm aiming for with that dog. It makes training easy.

[Samba]

When it comes to the dogs performance competition or family member, breeding and genetics matter.

I have a GSD not bred with great nerves or work ethic. Though she has earned high in trial....pressure of something can undo it to varying degrees. She is a rescue and she often reminds me how much breeding matters. Now, most people think she an exemplary dog. This is why it is important as to what knowledge and understanding breeding is based on.

[Jack's Dad]

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

Succeed in what? It sounds like a training/competition question, but you put it in the breeding section......

Succeed in any sport or working endeavor. Or even as a family companion.

Since genetics are part of breeding and training has a section as do sports. I didn't know where to put it. Feel free to move it to an appropriate section.

I don't think the intention of the thread is that hard to figure out.. The values of genetics vs training. Of course you need some of both.

[PaddyD]

Are you asking about nature .vs. nurture? Nurturing is a form of training in that it teaches the dog about its environment: whether to be trusting or not; whether to be skeptical of everything or not. Just the nurture part of a dog's life can 'train' it to act a certain way and a solid dog could be 'trained' to think of the world as a bad place, while a weak-nerved dog could be 'trained' to think of the world as full of good.
I have a dog that is more on the weak-nerved side but because of the way she was nurtured she is very trainable. I guess I am asking: where does nurturing end and training begin?

[Rerun]

I'd take good dog and novice handler any day...the novice handler can always learn more. The great trainer can only bring so much out of the weak dog. You can train, train, train, but when put under stress, the dog will always default back to it's weak genetics. The good dog will default back on its training.

[Liesje]

To me nurture and training are the same. Nurture/training and then genetics. The way I see it, genetics will define where along a "spectrum" of any given behavior/trait/drive a dog could possibly fall, but nurture and training will pin-point more specifically where along the spectrum defined by genetics that the dog will actually fall. I don't believe you can truly train or nurture a dog to be something outside of its genetics.