Starting out with 1 male and 1 female?

[GSD Fan]

I know it's going to be a while before I start my planned kennel, but I would like to talk to some breeders about something. It's a breeding in general question.

I would really love to get two for my foundation of my kennel, 1 male and 1 female. The male would be a stud and the female a breeding female.

I know that having a stud dog might be hard. However, I believe if I get a stud of good quality, has finished his championship, and health tested, I think I might have some people willing to breed their females to him.

As for the female, she would be his sister and I'd breed her to studs around the nation after going through the process to see if she is breed worthy.

See, what I am saying is I'd like to get a brother and sister as the foundation of my kennel.

I made this thread to see what other breeders believe and their experiences with studs and male breeding dogs. I'd also like a breeder's thoughts on getting two dogs from the same breeding.

[trudy]

Take it from me DO NOT get full siblings!!!! I have that, got Gemma Ty's full sister, younger by a year, and when she is in heat I have the extra worry that he not get her. If they were unrelated, maybe it wouldn't be such a worry, I would still manage them very carefully but the worry, that what if....

I do have the ability to say to people this is what a masculine her would look like, so if pups I could give a good indication of some info, BUT I did get the same great looks, and temperment and intelligence, but I'm sure it might have been better to not have full siblings.

Also never get 2 pups at the same time. So get either gender first, train it and show it and watch what else is out there you like, then go there for pup #2 in a few years. Check hips and elbows and maybe if you got the girl first yo will find a stud you particularly like adn can breed her to him, I would personally buy the very best pedigree I could afford, a top pedigreee has the best chance of producing well

[Emoore]

Strong possibility of an "oops" litter of kids with small hands. Carneys you know. Circus folk.

[selzer]

I think it is not the best idea. Are you talking about littermates? That is actually a bad idea. If you are talking about an adult male and a female puppy with the same sire and dam, well still not the best bet. Here is why:

If you want to be a breeder containment should not even need to be mentioned it should be a given. And yet way too many people who claim they want to breed someday, claim they had a slip. If you have a slip up, it will do more than affect your female, if she is a bit young. It will be extremely close inbreeding that is likely to show many recessive problems. You would have to be super vigilant ALL THE TIME. What if your bitch has a silent heat? Happens. You have no clue she is even due to come in, and you suddenly wake up to find them tied. Ick!

Also, lets say both sire and dam pass all their pre-breeding screenings as well as the brother, and you have a litter out of the dam. With all of his championships and titles, it is still to find quality bitches for the male, but you find a few, and then your friends have some. Well, your first litter has a MegE pup, or three pups with a heart condition, or a couple of other serious issues. In all honesty, you should be done with both, unless you can find evidence that the stud dog you used had the issue.

And if you cannot find people who want to try your dog out on their high quality bitches, and you lower your standards and breed to lower quality females, and they produce problems -- everyone will blame your stud, it will get around. And if your sire throws coats, cryptorchid, dysplasia, temperament issues -- maybe you should really not breed the female either, as they are of the same history.

In fact, I would NEVER be a stud owner. Oh having an intact dog is no problem, but being a stud owner, one who studs their dog to outside females, that is much more interesting in my opinion.

It is also cheaper to pay a stud fee, then to buy or raise up a dog, health screenings, food, kennel, training, trailing, titling, etc. High quality females will pay $1000 or more for a stud fee to a super male. Lower quality females are going to almost always want you to take a puppy. And if it is a friend or acquaintance, sooner or later you will, and you will not want to grow it out and breed it, it does not have the quality you are looking for, so you sell it, LOL. It will be THAT pup that has every problem under the sun and it will not be the bitch's owner who takes the fall on it, it will be you.

Once you start getting a name for being an ethical breeder with good success, then getting a stud dog, maybe a promising male out of your best female -- that may make more sense.

You asked for opinions, that is my best opinion on this.

[GSD Fan]

Thank you, sue. I appreciate your thoughts and opinion. I also thank trudy and emoore.

I posted this thread to hear opinions and thoughts, so it's all good. I think, sue, you are right. I should wait til I have a lot of experience before getting a stud and that I should just keep a male puppy out of one my females.

Thank you guys.

[Emoore]

Originally Posted by GSD Fan

Thank you, sue. I appreciate your thoughts and opinion. I also thank trudy and emoore.

Dont thank me, I was making a wisecrack. Even managed to get an Austin Powers quote in there.

[selzer]

I'm Sue too.

Anyhow, as hard as it is, sometimes it is good to start out with two females, different lines, maybe one as an adult -- already with genetic testing done, and temperament, etc. Maybe the other as a puppy, that you can raise and train -- more of a crap shoot, but you learn a lot that way.

You can practice containment, LOL. Females can be tough to manage sometimes.

Are we talking shepherds or another breed?

It is best to join a club and get to know lots of people and dogs.

[GSD Fan]

Originally Posted by selzer

I'm Sue too.

Anyhow, as hard as it is, sometimes it is good to start out with two females, different lines, maybe one as an adult -- already with genetic testing done, and temperament, etc. Maybe the other as a puppy, that you can raise and train -- more of a crap shoot, but you learn a lot that way.

You can practice containment, LOL. Females can be tough to manage sometimes.

Are we talking shepherds or another breed?

It is best to join a club and get to know lots of people and dogs.

We're talking about another breed. However, it is a general breeding question and it is not breed specific.

[selzer]

I was just thinking about bitch-bitch aggression. Some breeds tend to being kept as a pack better. Not sure if northern breeds like huskies fall into this, I think hounds, beagles and fox hounds generally do. Where shepherds fall on that continuum below the 50% mark.